Litany of fire

[ktom 598]

The tricky part is that if the "until the end of the phase" goes to Step 6 - meaning that the phase isn't really over yet - how can you say it is the end of the phase in Step 4 and allow "at the end of the phase" to activate? It isn't AT the end of the phase if the duration goes for another 2 steps. Hence, the dicta.

You'll note that "at the end of the challenge" is almost non-existent (usually saying "after the challenge resolves") while "at the end of the phase" is very common.

 

I agree that the FAQ's timing windows could be modified to graphically differentiate the "end phase" window from other framework windows. All I'm suggesting here is that while there are some unintuitive things related to the dictates of "end of the phase" timing, there are some really unintuitive things that happen without them, too.

[Bomb 66]

ktom said:

The tricky part is that if the "until the end of the phase" goes to Step 6 - meaning that the phase isn't really over yet - how can you say it is the end of the phase in Step 4 and allow "at the end of the phase" to activate? It isn't AT the end of the phase if the duration goes for another 2 steps. Hence, the dicta.

You'll note that "at the end of the challenge" is almost non-existent (usually saying "after the challenge resolves") while "at the end of the phase" is very common.

 

I agree that the FAQ's timing windows could be modified to graphically differentiate the "end phase" window from other framework windows. All I'm suggesting here is that while there are some unintuitive things related to the dictates of "end of the phase" timing, there are some really unintuitive things that happen without them, too.

I agree with that completely.

I also see your point on the difference between "at the end of the phase" and "until the end of the phase".  The problem I really have with it is that it's a difference of perception.  It's like the difference of perception between the glass being half empty or half full.  If you're at the end of the phase, is the phase actually over?  Or are you in between 2 phases?  If you are not in Phase 1 anymore, then wouldn't you be in Phase 2?

I guess I am trying to argue that "until the end of the phase" could be perceived as expiring once you enter the next phase.

 

[ktom 598]

Bomb said:

I also see your point on the difference between "at the end of the phase" and "until the end of the phase".  The problem I really have with it is that it's a difference of perception.  It's like the difference of perception between the glass being half empty or half full.  If you're at the end of the phase, is the phase actually over?  Or are you in between 2 phases?  If you are not in Phase 1 anymore, then wouldn't you be in Phase 2?

I guess I am trying to argue that "until the end of the phase" could be perceived as expiring once you enter the next phase.

Absolutely. It is totally a perception/how do you look at it think. Unfortunately, the philosophical discussion doesn't help in a tournament.

[alpha5099 71]

Perhaps I was being overly cautious, but I wanted to confirm that "During the next dominance phase" does in fact entail an "until the end of the phase" effect, so I sent the question into FFG. Nate's response:

 

"During the next dominance phase" means "from the beginning of the next dominance phase until the end of the next dominance phase." (Since it's actually triggered during the challenge phase, it has both a "start point" and an "end point." It's effect last for the entire duration of the next dominance phase.)

 

It's effects will expire before "At the end of the phase" effects resolve:

 

(2.6) End of the Phase

Each end-of-the-phase Framework Action

Window should be played without step

two (Save/Cancel) and without step five

(Responses). No triggered effects can be

played after the initiation of the end of the

phase.

“Until the end of the phase” lasting effects

expire in step 3 of the “End of Phase”

framework action window.

“At the end of the phase” passive effects

initiate in step 4 of the “End of Phase”

framework action window.

 

[ktom 598]

 Ah, sweet vindication. 

Thanks for taking the time to get the official word.

[Maester_LUke 0]

ktom said:

I agree that the FAQ's timing windows could be modified to graphically differentiate the "end phase" window from other framework windows. All I'm suggesting here is that while there are some unintuitive things related to the dictates of "end of the phase" timing, there are some really unintuitive things that happen without them, too.

 

I hate to perform thread necromancy, but since this issue came up in a discussion of Jerod's article over on cardgamedb, I thought I'd make it re-appear.  Especially for newer players, I wondered how useful they find the flowcharts and whether we can encourage FFG/Damon/the marketing department graphic designer to update the charts, including the addition of shadows "opportunities" and an optional epic phase (to show the lack of pre-challenge actions).  I know I find them most helpful in breaking down the Player & Framework actions, and in the options for Player Actions in the Challenge phase.  I think including this timing dicta with the flowcharts might be helpful.

And has there been an "official" term for the shadows?  I'd never really noticed that "running" had become the official term for the presence of agendas (I'd always thought of it as colloquial.  Would you (and by that I suppose I'm most interested in Ktom's opinion) consider the "window" similar enough to the normal FAWs to warrant the term Shadows Action, the way we have Limited Response?  Or should they termed something different given that the opportunities don't go back and forth like actions during the PAW or for Responses?