Litany of fire

[Rogue30 60]

"treat all locations as if they were characters" - is this the same as 'count as characters'?

[radiskull 39]

 I'm not sure there is an appreciable difference between those two phrases, so yes.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

"treat all locations as if they were characters" - is this the same as 'count as characters'?

Which cards are you looking at? I can think of some slight differences, depending on context, phase, etc.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

Which cards are you looking at? I can think of some slight differences, depending on context, phase, etc.

Litany of fire

Challenges: During the next dominance phase, treat all locations as if they were characters with STR 3 and no icons.

[Skowza 9]

Did you come up with some really tricky combo for LoF?  It just seems like a strange question, and from the way you worded it I infer that maybe you have a combo in mind that wont work if they don't "count as characters" but maybe I'm just overthinking it since I've always wondered what anyone would do with this event (other than the obvious TftN + Dragonpit + other burn mechanics combos).

[Khudzlin 734]

Litany of Fire + Westeros Bleeds = location and character reset

[Rogue30 60]

Skowza said:

Did you come up with some really tricky combo for LoF?

No. This was simple question just to be sure (since I can't read english) if (3.23) "Card Type Changes to Character" applies here. If yes, then Valar Dohaeris should work, right? "At the end" it's still "during" I guess.

[Rogue Cypher 0]

I think technically if you could pull it off, could you not activate Litany Of Fire and then play Shadow Politics after someone wins dominance as a response to initiate an intrigue challenge by choosing yourself to do it? Then you just need to find a way to give one of said locations an intrigue icon to initiate it with?

 

Shadow Politics says "during this phase" but no restrictions of it only being allowed during the Challenges phase. Only way I can find a way around that is if you're not allowed to trigger abilities off of someone winning dominance.

 

But to be honest, I don't see a reason why someone would bother with this idea anyway. It doesn't seem that worthwhile aside from you winning dominance by keeping characters up and then after dominance is awarded being able to attack again then stand them right after during the Standing Phase.

[radiskull 39]

Rogue Cypher said:

I think technically if you could pull it off, could you not activate Litany Of Fire and then play Shadow Politics after someone wins dominance as a response to initiate an intrigue challenge by choosing yourself to do it? Then you just need to find a way to give one of said locations an intrigue icon to initiate it with?

 

This would definitely work.  I'm not sure to what effect, but certainly the idea has potential.

[Rogue Cypher 0]

radiskull said:

Rogue Cypher said:

 

I think technically if you could pull it off, could you not activate Litany Of Fire and then play Shadow Politics after someone wins dominance as a response to initiate an intrigue challenge by choosing yourself to do it? Then you just need to find a way to give one of said locations an intrigue icon to initiate it with?

 

 

 

This would definitely work.  I'm not sure to what effect, but certainly the idea has potential.

 

Only logical positives to be able to perform something like this would be a combo of:

 

LoF + Shad Poli + The Promise of Victory (kind of "mulligan" mid-game) or Let My Poridge Fly (extra attachment control).

 

Otherwise, the potential to do it is neat, but the possible outcomes aren't nearly sweet enough to try it.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Litany of fire

 

Challenges: During the next dominance phase, treat all locations as if they were characters with STR 3 and no icons.

Right. I just wasn't sure if you were comparing it to another card that had the "count as character" text. If you were, I wanted both sides of the comparison before chiming in. I'm guessing, from your other posts, though, that you are comparing it to the wording in the "Card Type Changes to Character" FAQ entry?

 

They are, indeed, substantially the same. My ideas for differences are way too convoluted, really, and not worth getting into. Suffice to say, when Litany of Fire is played, the locations are indeed character-type card, and only character-type cards, for the phase.

As for the Valar Doheris combo, though, remember that "until the end of the phase" lasting effects wear off before "at the end of the phase" passive effects activate. Litany's "during the phase" is going to be treated the same as "until the end of the phase," so Valar D. will not be able to hit standing locations in combination with Litany.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

remember that "until the end of the phase" lasting effects wear off before "at the end of the phase" passive effects activate.

Ok, but is that mean Forgotten Plans does not stop Valar D?

[Rogue Cypher 0]

Forgotten Plans blanks out any Plot card that does not directly deal with the plot phase. Valar Dohaeris deals with the Dominance phase. So Forgotten Plans DOES stop Valar Dohaeris from activating.

[Rogue30 60]

@Rogue Cypher: It was devil's advocate question. Effect says "during" not "until the end". If at the end of the phase is not "during phase", then Forgotten plans should wear off and then activate again at the beginning of the next phase, right? Or does it work differently, because it is a constant effect? Let's say we have plot that says "at the end of taxation phase..." - does Forgotten plans stop such plot?

[Rogue Cypher 0]

"The end of the phase" should mean literally right before the phase ends. Right before the next phase begins, it's the last thing that occurs during a phase. By that logic there would be "in-between-phase phases" which would complicate things even more. It's easier to just assume that "at the end of the phase" texts mean, literally, it's the last thing that happens before the next phase begins. So any point in the round that does not involve the Plot phase should be considered to be blanked.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Ok, but is that mean Forgotten Plans does not stop Valar D?

Yes, I know it's a devil's advocate question.

The difference, though, is that Forgotten Plans as a continuous effect, rather than a lasting effect with set duration having a defined beginning and end. Since it is continuous, it lasts as long as the plot is active. Forgotten Plans does not start at the beginning of each phase and stop at the end of each phase - only to start again in the next action window. So because the overall duration of Forgotten Plans isn't over yet, it will handily stop Valar D.

The difference between Forgotten Plans and Litany of Fire is the difference between a constant and a lasting effect.

Anyway, we know from the FAQ that "until the end of the phase" lasting effects stop in Step 3 of the "End Phase" framework action window and "at the end of the phase" passive effects initiate in Step 4 of the same window - even though technically, the phase itself is still going until Step 6 of the window. That, of course, means that all "until the end of the phase" effects will terminate before any "at the end of the phase" effects will initiate. Since that is set down in the rule, what you are really questioning is that I equated the end of a "during the phase" lasting effect with the end of an "until the end of the phase" lasting effect. If the two are equivalent, as I propose, the discussion is over because we have the rule. If the two are not equivalent, we would need a different rule.

Basically, I'm just saying when the phase ends (in Step 3 for end phase by definition), the duration of the phase should go with it. Someone can always argue the other way though, even though we know end-phase already holds certain other timing exceptions (like the inability to trigger Responses). Someone can always send the question "does 'during the phase' mean the same thing as 'until the end of the phase' for a lasting effect?" in to FFG.

[Rogue Cypher 0]

I actually just thought of a question myself. When you use Litany Of Fire... are the locations being treated as characters considered neutral characters? Or a new completely different type of character? I would assume they would be treated as neutral however it doesn't specifically say so which makes me question it.

[ktom 598]

Rogue Cypher said:

 I would assume they would be treated as neutral however it doesn't specifically say so which makes me question it.

Why would you think they'd be neutral instead of whatever House affiliation the location card itself has? What traits will it have? What printed cost? You get these things by looking at the card as printed - and a location card have their own traits, printed costs, and House affiliations.

[Rogue Cypher 0]

In my own bumbling stupidity, I realize how ridiculous of a question that was now. My bad.

[Ratatoskr 34]

ktom said:

As for the Valar Doheris combo, though, remember that "until the end of the phase" lasting effects wear off before "at the end of the phase" passive effects activate. Litany's "during the phase" is going to be treated the same as "until the end of the phase," so Valar D. will not be able to hit standing locations in combination with Litany.

Oh, good lord.

I love this game as much as anybody, and it causes me physical pain to make a negative remark, but I find it a bit frustrating how counter-intuitive some of the rules interactions are. I sincerely hope I'll never have to explain this particular situation to somebody at a tournament.

Really, what is the point of having until-end-of-phase effects not last for the entirety of the action window, and thereby the phase? While we're at it, what is the reason behind not allowing triggered effects during End-of-phase action windows? Why not simply treat them as normal action windows? It can't be just to make Pulled Under worthwhile, can it? Seriously, I'm sure there are perfectly valid reasons for those rulings. I just can't see them. To me, this all looks like an unnecessary complication of the rules set.

[Bomb 66]

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

 

As for the Valar Doheris combo, though, remember that "until the end of the phase" lasting effects wear off before "at the end of the phase" passive effects activate. Litany's "during the phase" is going to be treated the same as "until the end of the phase," so Valar D. will not be able to hit standing locations in combination with Litany.

 

 

Oh, good lord.

I love this game as much as anybody, and it causes me physical pain to make a negative remark, but I find it a bit frustrating how counter-intuitive some of the rules interactions are. I sincerely hope I'll never have to explain this particular situation to somebody at a tournament.

Really, what is the point of having until-end-of-phase effects not last for the entirety of the action window, and thereby the phase? While we're at it, what is the reason behind not allowing triggered effects during End-of-phase action windows? Why not simply treat them as normal action windows? It can't be just to make Pulled Under worthwhile, can it? Seriously, I'm sure there are perfectly valid reasons for those rulings. I just can't see them. To me, this all looks like an unnecessary complication of the rules set.

I have to agree with Ratatoskr.  There are some counter-intuitive cards plus rule combinations that are quite frustrating.

[ktom 598]

Maybe, but sometimes, you have to make these "dicta."

I have one card that says "all Knight characters get +1 STR until the end of the phase." I have another card that says "at the end of the phase, discard all characters with 2STR or lower from play." Without using the rule in the FAQ ("until the end" wears off before "at the end" initiates), explain definitively what happens to Knights with printed STR 2 at the end of the phase.

The "no Response" thing was put in because it became too confusing as to what happened when Response created "until the end of the phase" lasting effects, especially when triggered in Response to "at the end of the phase" events. 

 

[Ratatoskr 34]

ktom said:

Maybe, but sometimes, you have to make these "dicta."

Yeah, I don't doubt that, in a game as complex as this. I just don't see the wisdom in this particular dictum (which is not to say there's none there, to be sure).

ktom said:

I have one card that says "all Knight characters get +1 STR until the end of the phase." I have another card that says "at the end of the phase, discard all characters with 2STR or lower from play." Without using the rule in the FAQ ("until the end" wears off before "at the end" initiates), explain definitively what happens to Knights with printed STR 2 at the end of the phase.

Now, here I'm obviously missing something, because I don't see a problem at all. Without the regulation in FAQ 2.6, the End of the Phase is a framework event like any other, and gets resolved in a standard framework action window. "All Knight characters get +1 STR until the end of the phase" as a lasting effect would last for the entire duration of the framework action window, just like the effect of Stinking Drunk lasts for the entire duration of the challenge, i.e. right until step 6 of the "Resolve challenge" framework action window. In step 5 of the action window, you'd resolve your "discard characters with STR 2" passive. You apply your modifiers and sort your guys out.

I mean, look at it this way: Let's modify the effects from your example, let's say they are "all participating Knight characters get +1 STR until the end of the challenge" and "after the challenge resolves, discard all characters with 2STR or lower from play". There wouldn't be any difficulty resolving this at all, would there? So, why can the "End of Phase" action window not be treated just like the "Resolve challenge" action window?

ktom said:

The "no Response" thing was put in because it became too confusing as to what happened when Response created "until the end of the phase" lasting effects, especially when triggered in Response to "at the end of the phase" events. 

 

Ah, I see. Makes sense I guess.

[radiskull 39]

 In the days before this ruling, I abused the heck out of a card called "Gossiping Bard", which said something like "Response: Whenever a character gains or loses a Trait, stand Gossiping Bard.  Then, Gossiping Bard claims one power."

The ability to trigger responses during end of phase on these guys was just silly - blank someone's text box until end of phase?  Stand em, claim a power.  At end of phase when the blanking wears off?  Stand em again, claim a power.  I'm not saying the ruling was because of Gossiping Bard (in fact, I'm fairly sure it wasn't), but boy, was that a fun deck.

[Bomb 66]

ktom said:

The "no Response" thing was put in because it became too confusing as to what happened when Response created "until the end of the phase" lasting effects, especially when triggered in Response to "at the end of the phase" events. 

Perhaps make End of Phase framework windows completely different and not so standard.  The solution was apparently to remove Step 2(Save/Cancel Responses) and Step 5(Responses) and instead we have

1. "End of Phase Initiation"

2. Nothing

3. "End of Phase Resolution"

4. "End of Phase Passive"

5. Nothing

6. End of Action

 

Lasting Effects are considered expired in Step 3, but calling it the "end of the phase" before end of the phase passive effects just seems backwards.

I'm sure this was all thought out carefully since it was separated in the FAQ, but I feel like Lasting Effects should expire in step 6, and that it should be a lasting effect until the end of the action.

I could just as easily say let's switch the Passive and Resolution, but that's too easy. 

I just don't feel linguistically that without the Passive step you are actually resolving "End of Phase".  If we are willing to remove responses from the normal Framework Action window to compensate for confusion created, then I can see reworking all End of Phase Framework Action windows to reduce additional confusion created.