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Rashid ad Din Sinan

Astartes / Omnissiah heresy?

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In Dark Gods it mentions that some feel the Omnissiah is in fact a heresy, which doesn't take much to understand, but also mentions some feel that the Astartes are also a heresy.  Do they have 'non-traditional' beliefs or is it because they are genetically enhanced?  Genetically altering people seems pretty straight forward but this is apparently an exception, much like Navigators are mutants, but both are necessary for the survival of the Imperium.

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Potential Reasons why a hard line member of the Imperium (or Inquisition) may consider a Asartes a Heretic

Some do not worship or even consider the Emperor a God

Sone are obviously mutants

They harbour and allow Psykers to live and dwell amongst them

They rebelled against the Emperor once - fully half of them -

They do not cosider themsleves subject to the Law of Imperial Rule

 

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The Blood Angels can succumb to the Red Thirst and may feed on the blood of their enemies, which signifies the corruption of their gene-seed.

The Space Wolves have elongated canines, which is a sure sign of mutation and back in the day the Wulfen may even have assumed beastform.

The Dark Angels are still tainted by an old and unforgiven betrayal of the Emperor.

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The Adeptus Mechanicus and all it's forge worlds are an independent empire aligned with the Imperium of Man.

 

By definition the Machine Cult is heretical to the Imperial Creed. The Imperium can't do a thing about it either.

Without the alliance the Imperium would collapse into chaos, worlds would starve, hives would fail, vehicles and starships would never get repaired, and the Adeptus Mechanicus could go along and reposes all of their property.

Even the Astartes are fully reliant on the Mechanicum for all their equipment.

 

So the question really is...

Who among the Imperium recognizes their Machine Cult masters and understands that the Imperial bureaucracy is actually middle management for the Mechanicum?

 

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ItsUncertainWho said:

...

Without the alliance the Imperium would collapse into chaos, worlds would starve, hives would fail, vehicles and starships would never get repaired, and the Adeptus Mechanicus could go along and reposes all of their property.

...

Who among the Imperium recognizes their Machine Cult masters and understands that the Imperial bureaucracy is actually middle management for the Mechanicum?

That's probably an extreme scenario, after all there are plenty of examples of technical people who are not Tech Priests.

I reckon there is a basic 21+ century level of technology that is accessible to the at least half the imperium, but the Mechanicus are responsible for that super-advanced technology from the past that even they struggle to understand.

The average Guard can strip and clean their rifle. Technicians can repair Thunderbolts and most types of vehicles save those based on STC patterns.

Aeros would still fly, and maybe even lower tech inner-system craft, but definately not starships, etc.

Mechanicus can fix/make Bolters, possibly Lasguns (although I reckon that level of tech may be accessible to Imperium), and the Imperium can definately make its own Stubbers, Flamers, Rocket launchers, grenades, etc, etc. Techpriests seem to also do some of this low level manufacuturing, but probably because they can do it more efficiently.

Without the Mechanicus, after the dust had settled, the Imperium would probably be a lot like the Tau, scattered in innumerable small pockets.

Politically, it behoves the Mechanicus to keep the Imperium dependant on them, as they would be lost without all those Astartes and IG to protect them. It's definately a symbiosis rather than one side having outright control.

Psykers are the spanner in the works. Theoretically they could either destroy the Imperium, or liberate it, even from the Mechanicus. Either way, the Mechanicus is probably keen to use its power to prove that metal is stronger than mental! So far they have been right, but it begs the question 'what have they done to protect this status quo?' Who knows, they could be bigger b*****ds than the Inquisition?'

 

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obscure quote from the 80's to prove my point.

"Who rules Bartertown?"

"Master-Blaster...."

"Who rules Bartertown?"

"....MASTER-BLASTER rules Bartertown!"

                                                ~ most old-schoolers will know what movie this was from.

 

Those in charge of the technology make the rules. They may be content to stay in the background, but the Adeptus Mechanicus is an abberant cult in the Imperium that is allowed to exist because of their power. They hold the Imperium in the palm of their hands. If Mars was to be destroyed and the Adeptus Mechanicus to be wiped out the Imperium would crumble.

They need Mars on their side just as much as Mars needs them for protection from other alien species.

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Much could be said that many in the Inquisition are also heretical.

But much like the Inquisition, the Astartes and the Omnissiah have seperate rules that they get to live by, which are much broader, and yet more restrictive in some senses, then the average person.

Hypocritical, sure it is, but then with all the other dark virtues that are held up and pure virtues in the 40k universe, should anyone be amazed that hypocricy is also one of them?

There are lines however, which none shall cross.  While these lines can be fuzzy and grey and very flexible, once you've clearly stepped over those lines, nothing, and I mean nothing will save you from the wrath that is coming for you.

But yes, the Astartes, the Omnissiah, and the Inquisition can technically be concidered heretical.

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LeBlanc13 said:

obscure quote from the 80's to prove my point.

"Who rules Bartertown?"

"Master-Blaster...."

"Who rules Bartertown?"

"....MASTER-BLASTER rules Bartertown!"

                                                ~ most old-schoolers will know what movie this was from.

Obscure my ass LOL

That is my squad;s motto. Ah its good to be the Squad Sergeant.

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The Laughing God said:

The Dark Angels are still tainted by an old and unforgiven betrayal of the Emperor.

 

But this fact is not widely known, even amongst the members of their own chapter. Many of the Astartes legions which are suffering from genetic drift in the gene-seed take (sometimes extreme) measures to conceal or mitigate that fact from getting back to Holy Terra. It is possible, however, that the High Lords are simply ignoring these facts because the legions are essential to the survival of the Imperium.

Having recently finished Mechanicum, it would appear that the Adeptus Mechanicus believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah (well, some of them anyway).

 

Z

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It's probably worth noting that that Imperial creed wasn't established until 3000 years after the Emperor was enthroned. Originally the big E  didn't want to be worshiped as a god bacause he knew that religion was tearing mankind apart. The great crusade was a mission of truth with the message :

There are no gods only knowledge and mankinds right to rule the stars.

The astartes beliefs now a re pretty much the same as they were at the time of the crusade, I'd suggest reading the first 3 Horus Heresy books for a good insight into the mentality

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The Mechanicus.

Those who do not believe that the Omnissiah and the Emperor are one and the same are indeed Heretics. However it's not only the Imperium that overlooks this but the Mechanicus as well. If the Mechanicus and Imperium parted ways, the Mechanicum would NOT take over. One cannot survive without the other. The Mechanicum has the advantage in tech but they do not have the numbers. OK the Imperium probably couldn't attack them... but the Mechanicum would lack the resources to protect themselves from external foes, a job currently performed by feeding vast numbers of guard down the throats of whatever threat is determined.

The Astartes.

The Emperor is not a god. He said so himself. The Chapters (although badly mauled by Guillimans decree's that they split from the legion structure laid out by the Emperor) remember this fact. They also aren't above taking themselves off a battleground if something "more important" comes up.Although they nominally obey the High lords of terra they do not receive Orders, but invitations. Invitations they could refuse. They are autonomous in an empire that treasures duty.

Add to this the Ultramarines current empire building exercise and you can see why the Inquisition in particular might be a little wary about the motives of the Superhumans.

Without them however the Imperium would be greatly lessened. No one else is as well suited to dealing with the more perfidious foes the Imperium must face.

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Also if you look somewhere in the fluff there have been references to various power seekers treating the space marines as heretics much to their own determent.

 

 

Salcor

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Mawdrigen said:

The Mechanicus.

Those who do not believe that the Omnissiah and the Emperor are one and the same are indeed Heretics.

 

False. Read „Titanicus” for that matter. In fact they are divided in their beliefs. Some of them worship Emperor as a Machine God (not Omnissiah, he was only the prophet of Machine God), and some believe that they are separate beings, and some even do not believe that big E is a god.

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No offence but there's still a division even within the way the Emperor is reviered. It's led to civil strife and all manner of clashes in the Imperiums history. Cults of the Emperor are akin to Modern day Chirsstians, so many sects that interpret it all differently.

And with that, aye most people here have stated correctly that the Emperor was one: Not ever wanting to be praised as a God (The Imperial truth, there are no gods.) and made an alliance with Mars long ago, allowing for thier own religion to prosper (again which is just another aspect of the Emperor) and be outside of Imperial code. The Astartes again, are the Emperors 'children' in a sense. (not the chapter lol). From the proto astartes, to the Chapters, they alone kept to the ways the Emperor made do with when he was fully alive.

If one really thought about it, you know who's actually heretical? The ones who beleive the Emperor is the God-Emperor. Kind of ironic in the 40K way. :)

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I was reading through WFRP TOme of Salvation last night and that is exactly what this Dark Heresy needs a comprehensive guide to the faiths of the Imperium or at least the Calixis Sector. I know we get a bit here and a bit there and here and bit and there a bit and everywhere a bit bit, but be dont get anything compiled or comprehensivie enough to understand what exactly is the Creed, what exactly is heretical and so forth.

So far all I have gleamed is that the Temple Tendency is heretical because they think the Imperium should be run by the minisotrum not the High Lords.

The bulk of the book would be, of course, dedicated to the Emperor (blessed is he),but later sections could be focused on the chaos gods, the omnissiah, Khaine, Gork and Mork, and other god like beings and religions of various Xenos and planets through out the Imperium (or the Calixis Sector).

Of course, throw in the obligatory adventure and some new character gen stuff and rules and guns and a space marine chaplain for Dezmund and viola, new books.

Heck, Im not 100% certain but it seems that you could use alot of the material from ToS.

After all, Sigmar and Emperor seem fairly similar at base.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

I was reading through WFRP TOme of Salvation last night and that is exactly what this Dark Heresy needs a comprehensive guide to the faiths of the Imperium or at least the Calixis Sector. I know we get a bit here and a bit there and here and bit and there a bit and everywhere a bit bit, but be dont get anything compiled or comprehensivie enough to understand what exactly is the Creed, what exactly is heretical and so forth.

So far all I have gleamed is that the Temple Tendency is heretical because they think the Imperium should be run by the minisotrum not the High Lords.

The bulk of the book would be, of course, dedicated to the Emperor (blessed is he),but later sections could be focused on the chaos gods, the omnissiah, Khaine, Gork and Mork, and other god like beings and religions of various Xenos and planets through out the Imperium (or the Calixis Sector).

Of course, throw in the obligatory adventure and some new character gen stuff and rules and guns and a space marine chaplain for Dezmund and viola, new books.

Heck, Im not 100% certain but it seems that you could use alot of the material from ToS.

After all, Sigmar and Emperor seem fairly similar at base.

 

I'd like to second all this. I would buy that book in a heartbeat.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Heck, Im not 100% certain but it seems that you could use alot of the material from ToS.

Been reading too much occult stuff, I was wondering how Temple of Set entered into the duscussion but it was Tome of Salvation.

But yes, that would be a book I would be very interested in.  Almost done with dark gods and the distinctions between the various Imperial cults and heresies are difficult to comprehend.  Much of it seems like the Liliputians with the narrow or wide end of the egg.

Another question - in the Horus books the astartes are thought to be immortal with the Half-Heard being the oldest one left but still in fine form.  Is this true and if so how old is the oldest astares now?  A historical perspective not edited/purged by the various forces might be interesting - if he hadn't been killed for heresy that is...

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My view is that they are functionally immortal in terms of they do not die of age but most succumb reasonably early in their potential lives due to combat.

IIRC the Blood Angels have the longest lived - being Vampric I guess (!) - isn't Commander Dante 1500+ yrs old

also are you counting Dreadnoughts - as at least one Space Wolf Dreadnought fought alongside Leman Russ

:)

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LeBlanc13 said:

obscure quote from the 80's to prove my point.

"Who rules Bartertown?"

"Master-Blaster...."

"Who rules Bartertown?"

"....MASTER-BLASTER rules Bartertown!"

                                                ~ most old-schoolers will know what movie this was from.

 

Those in charge of the technology make the rules.

It's good to be the Tech Priest! And now I have to go put that into the dvd payer...

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In regards to SM ages, if I remember correctly a lot of Chaos Space Marines, at least the ones that are still 'human' are members of the original traitor legions. Time doesn't flow linearly in the Eye of Terror where they hang out between Black Crusades, and so you still have a lot of SM that remember the the Heresy.

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grinnock said:

In regards to SM ages, if I remember correctly a lot of Chaos Space Marines, at least the ones that are still 'human' are members of the original traitor legions. Time doesn't flow linearly in the Eye of Terror where they hang out between Black Crusades, and so you still have a lot of SM that remember the the Heresy.

Depending on where you get your infromation High Marshal Halbrick of the Black Templrars was either a sergeant of a captain during the Heresy, depending on the source.

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ItsUncertainWho said:

Without the alliance the Imperium would collapse into chaos, worlds would starve, hives would fail, vehicles and starships would never get repaired, and the Adeptus Mechanicus could go along and reposes all of their property.

Even the Astartes are fully reliant on the Mechanicum for all their equipment.

The Mechanicus could go along and repo all the tech, science and related things.  However as the Imperium is reliant on their tech, so to are the Mechanicus relied on the Imperium.  The Imperium provides needed food, resources, materials, supplies, found technology/STCs, manpower, protection, and new recruits. Without that the Mechanicus would be in quite a fix themselves.  So in short the two are joined perpetually out of want and need. Unless either satisfies their needs elsewise, or some big disaster happenes (I.E. The Mechanicus are pawns/become part of the C'tan) it's not going to change.

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Colonel-Commissar ManBeast said:

 

 

Depending on where you get your infromation High Marshal Halbrick of the Black Templrars was either a sergeant of a captain during the Heresy, depending on the source.

He got promoted so both could be accurate!

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Da Boss said:

 

My view is that they are functionally immortal in terms of they do not die of age but most succumb reasonably early in their potential lives due to combat.

IIRC the Blood Angels have the longest lived - being Vampric I guess (!) - isn't Commander Dante 1500+ yrs old

also are you counting Dreadnoughts - as at least one Space Wolf Dreadnought fought alongside Leman Russ

:)

 

 

And that's why I really hate the functionally immortal crap they chucked out in the heresy series to make marines even more Teh LEET!1!@1

 

Blood angels were cool as the long lived marines, and hoary old space wolves with big beards as well.

 

How exactly are the blood angels the longest lived chapter if ALL marines are immortal? The only way for that to work is if blood angels are virtually invulnerable to damage, thus allowing them to live longer before they succumb to combat. Otherwise everyone can be 1500 years old and Dante isn't anything special at all.

 Nor is Bjorn the Fell-Handed, oldest of the old ones. Suddenly being a 10,000 year old dreadnought that walked beside Russ is so last millennium - why these tactical marines are 10,500 years old and they're doing just fine.

 

Dreadnoughts and the warp were the only two methods of prolonging a marine's life, so it actually made them interesting. Now they are as boring as the cardboard cutout immortal marines that GW seem to be saturating the market with. And despite what Dezmond might say, this is almost entirely MARKETING and not an innate quality of a space marine. Orks, eldar, or even Tau could be as popular if they were marketed with over the top hyperbole and ridiculous novelisations.

Hellebore

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Hakken said:

Mawdrigen said:

 

The Mechanicus.

Those who do not believe that the Omnissiah and the Emperor are one and the same are indeed Heretics.

 

 

 False. Read „Titanicus” for that matter. In fact they are divided in their beliefs. Some of them worship Emperor as a Machine God (not Omnissiah, he was only the prophet of Machine God), and some believe that they are separate beings, and some even do not believe that big E is a god.

 

Yes I know I've read titanicus which is why I stated explicitly that it was the ones who DIDNT believe he was the same as the omnisiah that would be considered heretics by the imperial doctrine. The others I assume would be less considered heretics than considered the same as all those people who worship the emperor in slightly different ways. The parts of the Mechanicus who think he's not the omnisiah... well they would be heretics.

 

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