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Lucifer216

First Founding: Anyone else afraid we'll just be getting pre-existing but repackaged GW material?

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Hi there,

I'm in two minds about this book. On the one hand, I'd really like it if this supplement goes into extreme detail about the legions, but I don't see this happening given how much it has to cover. Does anyone have any idea as to how much someone who has basically read every single piece of GW and Black Library 40K background to date since Rogue Trader would actually get from this?

I'm getting a bit tired of effectively rebuying information I already know in the FFG roleplaying lines (the introduction in Black Crusade, I could have written myself without needing to consult existing material), and I'm hoping that this one will actually add sometime to the universe.

I know that First Founding will probably provide a great deal of crunch, but as a GM, this is actually of surprisingly little value, given how easy it is to transfer stats from 40K the table top to 40K the RPG.

 

 

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Lucifer216 said:


Does anyone have any idea as to how much someone who has basically read every single piece of GW and Black Library 40K background to date since Rogue Trader would actually get from this?


I'd say not much...

I have no idea what will actually be in the book mind you, but if you already have read that much fluff then it's unlikely you'll find a whole lot new in the First Founding book.

Let’s face it, stuff like that is not written for people like you. It’s written for people who don't have as strong of a grip on the fluff as you. It's also going to be nice to have it condensed into one source rather then several different ones.

 

 

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Sadly I am willing to bet you will be dissapointed, I do not think FFG had the rights to alter anything GW has already done. I am awaiting the book, despite being in the same boat as you, however. As I have found (almost) all of the FFG 40k books to be at the very least a good read.

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I'll doubt there will be much new stuff, since they are going to talk about good'ol space marines... There is so much fluff on Sm out there already, you may get unimportant snipet about a chapter in the Jericho Reach and probably some more talking about the Storm Warden, plus a few special characters...

 

IMO.

 

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The only 40K books I have are the recent RPG ones, so it's almost all new to me.

What I'm hoping for is rules for running non-Deathwatch astartes.  I'm more interested in running a character through being an aspirant and becoming a full fledged chaper marine than I am running an established, exceptional marine who gets a new "job assignment."  I know it's possible to deconstruct the Deathwatch astartes, I'd just rather FFG do it for me.  :)

 

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 VanorDM: It's an interesting question, actually. I take the point about such books not being aimed at 40K background veterans, but then I wonder how many GMs, who let's be honest, are far more likely to buy such a supplement then players (most of whom seem to only get core books and the player's guides) are 40K nuts and how many are relatively new to the setting?

It's a shame that there's not really more data on this. I guess part of the issue that the people who write books for FFG are essentially like us, and as you say, are operating under limited sanction from GW. 

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 Another question worth asking is, if a lot of it is somewhat rehashed how worthwhile will it be to have all this information in one book. If its sources are the HH, Abnettverse and so on then wouldn't it actually be nice to have these points of reference in one book, saves a **** load of time leafing though book x to find out if thing in book z fits with book w. I think it will be worthwhile.

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 Well, I have high hopes for this book. Knowing what Forgeworld is allowed to do with the fluff (the Imperial Armour books about the Badab wars are a good example). And there are still a few first founding chapters that do not have a well-established background. The Iron hands is one example (and I liked the sample pages about them, even though it was not earth-shocking) and the Raven Guard is another example.

Even more than the fluff, I am interested in the chapter-specific rules and abilities. Anyhow, for me this book is an instant buy.

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I doubt it will be as bad as you think. Was the Imperial Fists info in Rites of Battle a repeat of old info? Sure the flavor was preserved, but I didn't think it was regurgitated. As an example, the psychic powers were unique and flavorful to the Chapter as a whole and never spoken of before to my knowledge.

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Pre-existing info is inevitable as not everyone has read every scrap of fluff. Personally I have never played 40k. If they are doing a straight copy/paste from the Codexes I would cry shenannigans but I do need info that is only in the mini's game. For instance I am familiar with the lore on most of the first foundings but all I really know about the Salamanders is that they piss off Grimaldus. :)

So I am hoping for some of the existing GW fluff is in there but don't want a reprinted codex.

 

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I think that FFG are doing a good job of re-writting the background material where it is needed, and it is needed as many players are fairly naive about the real fluff. Unfortunately I suspect a good a bit of First Founding is going to be covering existing material. I'm sure there will be plenty of new background material, especially about the campaign.

Unlike Forge World publications they cannot assume that their readers are familier with the codex background. But as Black Library books are being released about Raven Guard, White Scars and Salamanders up coming they might not have a lot of leeway but if you are lucky they might have got some details in there from unreleased books.

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Hi there,

If you've read extensively then fluff wise, and material wise you may not be satisfied.  On the other hand, FFG seems to be good at collecting and presenting information.  Look at the except on the Iron Hands, a chapter with almost no fluff (other than the horus heresy where they were ambushed, haven't seen any other novels for them).  So I think for general players like us, it really helps.  Also, the stats and write up for the remaining four loyalist legions/ chapters.

What I was hoping for is also a Specialisation guide, more intensive spotlight coverage into the structure of the Apothecarion, the operations and how Librarians are trained and selected, the Techmarines and their mysterious practices.  How do they integrate into a chapter's daily functions and operations.  These are mainly brief descriptions from various sources.

I suggest previewing once more materials becomes available for it.  I usually browse a store copy of any gaming material at my local gamestore and then I decide whether to commit any resources.  So far, FFG has not disappointed me except MoTx (which my DM bought instead).

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Thanks for the comments and the advice.

Deepstriker: There is an Iron Hands novel, but it is so god-awful, that you should probably praise the omnissiah that you've not read it. The main character, Iron Father Gdolkin, is best described as an Angry Marine. He is angry all the time and everything another character does, makes him angrier still.

For actually decent Iron Hands background, you would need to find Index Astrates: Iron Hands (GW later released the Index Astrates series as two books), an article in White Dwarf and Fulgrim, the Horus Heresy novel, which culminates in the death of Ferrus Manus.

AndrewM9: You make a good point. The Imperial Fist psychic powers were very welcome. Psychic powers for the first founding chapters that don't have a Codex of their own (so Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders, White Scars) are definitely much needed.

What I think would be of great value would be some additional information regarding the Space Marine forces that have joined the Anchilus crusade, their commanders and some GM tips on how to feature fighting alongside a larger Space Marine force.

UncleArkie: The Abnettverse is relatively free of Space Marine background, with the exception of the Iron Snakes (a nautical/ancient greece themed chapter, which never reference their primarch by name). It's effectively concerned with the Sabbat Crusade and is great for that region of space and time (it takes place a couple of centuries prior to the "current" date of Warhammer 40K), and is essential reading for Imperial Guard fans.

 

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Lucifer216 said:

 

 VanorDM: It's an interesting question, actually. I take the point about such books not being aimed at 40K background veterans, but then I wonder how many GMs, who let's be honest, are far more likely to buy such a supplement then players (most of whom seem to only get core books and the player's guides) are 40K nuts and how many are relatively new to the setting?

 

Well there's a difference between someone who's interested in the fluff and someone who's read everything...

I mean I've spent my fair amount of time on the Lexicanum, I have a couple of the ominbuss' at home, played all the DoW games, have a 1750 SM army for TT, ect...

But there's still a lot of fluff I've not seen or read, because so much of it is scattered though out many different sources. 

 

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I personally don't feel that First Founding is a retread of existing material. The book is centred around bringing the four other First Founding Chapters to the fore, and those Chapters have never really got a lot of coverage before so their expansion is quite welcome. As for the rest of the book, well there are certainly a lot of familiar concepts, but it looks at them with a 40K RPG viewpoint, which helps to expand what most people know from the TT game.

On top of that I'd say that all the FFG 40K RPG books do a good job of not taking their audience for granted and operating under the assumption that people coming to this game mightn't know anything about the TT game or 40K in general. So it appears that some parts are hand-holding the players, then that was probably their intent. The opening to Black Crusade may be old hat to any gizzled veteran of multiple Chaos armies across multiple editions of the TT game, but to someone picking up Black Crusade with no prior knowledge of the game it's there to both explain what Chaos is and to get them excited about entering that world. I'm glad that the books don't assume you know everything about 40K, becuase that'd make for a bad game that doesn't explain enough to its players, and that would leave new players out in the cold.

BYE

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 I have to say, this book really has me interested. I was never a TT player, and all my knowledge comes either from Lexicanum or from 40k RPG books (not counting the odd novel or two, these are extremely hard to get in my country). It'll be nice to have all the First Founding Chapters written up in one place, especially since some of them are currently somewhat underdeveloped.

I'd be very disappointed if the book didn't contain much more on the Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard and White Scars than can be found in existing GW materials, but am pretty certain it won't be the case.

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I'm most interested in how to play certain specialties with each of the new chapters.

Every chapter has apothecaries, techmarines, and (most have) librarians, and all of them will be slightly different as they take to their specialty through the eyes of their chapter.  How much do we really know about Salamander apothecaries?  How do the beliefs and traditions of the White Scars affect their techmarines?  What unique rituals and foci would an Iron Hands librarian have?  These are questions that I would love to see answered.

 

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jareddm said:

I'm most interested in how to play certain specialties with each of the new chapters.

Every chapter has apothecaries, techmarines, and (most have) librarians, and all of them will be slightly different as they take to their specialty through the eyes of their chapter.  How much do we really know about Salamander apothecaries?  How do the beliefs and traditions of the White Scars affect their techmarines?  What unique rituals and foci would an Iron Hands librarian have?  These are questions that I would love to see answered.

 

Exactly the same thing I expected.  I'm not only interested in the traditions but also the daily practices and difference in practices between the various loyal chapters.  I hope that they would go into more details about each chapter.

Into the Fires of Battle, and unto the Anvil of War!  Am re-reading my Tome of Fire Trilogy, and awaiting the release of the Salamanders!  Any other Loyalist Chapter fans looking forward as well?

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Deepstriker said:

Into the Fires of Battle, and unto the Anvil of War!  Am re-reading my Tome of Fire Trilogy, and awaiting the release of the Salamanders!  Any other Loyalist Chapter fans looking forward as well?

Yes. I have always been a fan of the Raven Guard. So I am looking forward to First Founding.

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 The thing which saddens me most with Deathwatch is that the 'characterisation' of the Chapters seems to be about the 'gimmick' of them, as per the TT, and not how they're actually characterised.

E.g. the Blood Angels as a Close Combat excelling Chapter. Their background describes them as highly ritualised and almost pre-Heresy Emperor's-Children-like in their dedication to enhanced, artful warfare. It's their *flaw* that they're cursed to be CC maniacs, not their focus.

Similarly, the Salamanders. It's given repeated token service in the Tome of Fire books, but the focal 'theme' for the Salamanders is their self-reliance. It's preference and symbolism which makes them more often select flamers/meltas, not their unique skill and disposition. 

Though I can understand it in the cheap-skills/talents lists for chapters. It worries me that the Dark Angels intolerance is overlooked in favour of suspicion. I'd hope that the Iron Hands don't get portrayed as super-machiney at the expense of their general intolerance of any weakness. (The end point of that intolerance is Machine>Flesh ergo replace.)

I could be out on the wings though and grumbling on nothing. I can't deny that it doesn't pose too big a threat or imbalance, merely a hint of off-taste on the flavour of things. Ho hum!

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Xisor said:

 The thing which saddens me most with Deathwatch is that the 'characterisation' of the Chapters seems to be about the 'gimmick' of them, as per the TT, and not how they're actually characterised.

E.g. the Blood Angels as a Close Combat excelling Chapter. Their background describes them as highly ritualised and almost pre-Heresy Emperor's-Children-like in their dedication to enhanced, artful warfare. It's their *flaw* that they're cursed to be CC maniacs, not their focus.

Similarly, the Salamanders. It's given repeated token service in the Tome of Fire books, but the focal 'theme' for the Salamanders is their self-reliance. It's preference and symbolism which makes them more often select flamers/meltas, not their unique skill and disposition. 

Though I can understand it in the cheap-skills/talents lists for chapters. It worries me that the Dark Angels intolerance is overlooked in favour of suspicion. I'd hope that the Iron Hands don't get portrayed as super-machiney at the expense of their general intolerance of any weakness. (The end point of that intolerance is Machine>Flesh ergo replace.)

I could be out on the wings though and grumbling on nothing. I can't deny that it doesn't pose too big a threat or imbalance, merely a hint of off-taste on the flavour of things. Ho hum!

The beauty of pen and paper games is that you can add all that to your own game even if there is little or no official mention of it, thats the point :)

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 Of course, of course. It's what I've been doing with my rather unsatisfactorially ruled Iron Hand (as I didn't like the rule sets I've seen online). A bit of a hodge-podge from Rites of Battle and a wee GM-approved bionic hand for his starting trapping.

Anyway, the point I was aiming for was not so much that it was 'missing', but that the actually characterful stuff was largely excluded/unruled in place of what are essentially table-top gimmicks/emergent effects. 

But not to worry. Fishes/wishes and all that.

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Hear, hear, Xisor!!  (and, ummm, isn't Lord Vader looking for you...?gui%C3%B1o.gif)

Too too much good good stuff got left on the floor...really good role-playin'-type stuff...and just to re-iterate for everyone's benefit:  Salamanders love self-reliance, Iron Hands hate weakness, and the Dark Angels just can't stand all you imperfect treacherous fiends! gui%C3%B1o.gif

I"m really hoping all this and more is in First Founding.....but, if history is a predictor of future action, it won't be.....llorando.gif

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