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Face Eater

Weak melta weapons

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What about perhaps adding a Special Quality "Can't hit the broad side of a barn." Giving the shooter cumulative penalties for hitting Size Categories smaller than a Battle Tank?

 

And maybe combine it with a Special Quality "They're just too small." that halves the damage against man-sized and smaller targets?

 

That way increasing the damage to the point it actually feels like a tank-killer weapon might prevent it from also becoming an absurdly good anti-infantry weapon.

 

 

I think something like making the Melta have the Recharge rule, and a penalty to hit targets smaller than a certain size, while upping the damage, might make them more "accurate" in their use and mechanics. If you go far back enough Meltaguns couldn't even move and fire...

 

Just in case anyone's curious, here's the stat line, with context:

 

Attack Roll: subtract BS (a value between 0-10, 3 being a human) from 7 to get the Target Number you must roll under on a D6 to hit a target.

 

Range: 0-6'' at +1 to hit

Range: 6-12'' at +/-0 to hit

 

Damage Roll: The attack has a Strength value (between 0-10, 3 being a human's punch) and the target a Toughness value. Compare S and T. If equal, the Target Number to Wound is 4. Otherwise the difference between S & T is added or subtracted from 4 to get the Target Number.

 

Strength: 8

 

Wounds: actors have a Wounds value (between 1-10, 1 being a human). If it is reduced to 0 the actor dies. A super-heroic human might have as much as 5 Wounds. An attack's Damage is subtracted directly from an actor's Wounds.

 

Damage: d6

 

Armour Saves: armour has a Save rating (between 3 and 6) which you need to roll equal to or over to avoid taking damage from a successful attack. Mind that a 3+ save is only possible for someone wearing a suit of armour under a suit of Powered Armour.

 

Save Modifier: -4

 

Weapon Types: The game uses 4 different Weapon Types, Close Combat (can be used in melee), Heavy (move or fire and has movement penalty), Slow (move or fire), and Following Fire (additional attack after a successful attack). Mind that weapons do not need to have a Weapon Type, or just one Weapon Type.

 

Type: Slow

 

Area: This is self-explanatory, I hope.

 

Area: 1''

 

Basically, in Rogue Trader the only thing stopping a Melta Gun from being a superb anti-Infantry weapon was its Weapon Type. But honestly, that seriously impacted its quality as a tank killer as well. In fact, Rogue Trader Melta Guns only really shone when used alongside a Gravition Gun, against infantry. At least as far as I recall.

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There's currently no reason why anyone sane would take a plasma weapon.

 

An old reply, but I just got to read that thread...long story short, a plasma weapon is taken..because it's a freakin' plasma weapon.

 

These are weapons of a bygone era, the technology all but lost and crudely reproduced.  Each plasma weapon are surely a few millenia old at the very least, relics to be revered and protected.  To have one is to be considered trusted and worthy of that trust by your betters.

 

This is similar to bolt weapons; people prefer an autogun+fire selector+manstopper rounds+silencer because of the mechanical reasons behind it, but a bolt weapon is symbol of Status.  Anyone can have an autogun.  Only someone can have a bolt weapon.

Edited by Braddoc

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An old reply, but I just got to read that thread...long story short, a plasma weapon is taken..because it's a freakin' plasma weapon.

 

These are weapons of a bygone era, the technology all but lost and crudely reproduced.  Each plasma weapon are surely a few millenia old at the very least, relics to be revered and protected.  To have one is to be considered trusted and worthy of that trust by your betters.

 

This is similar to bolt weapons; people prefer an autogun+fire selector+manstopper rounds+silencer because of the mechanical reasons behind it, but a bolt weapon is symbol of Status.  Anyone can have an autogun.  Only someone can have a bolt weapon.

So why doesn't the mechanics reflect this stuff? We've already established that these iconic weapons are actually pretty crap, which makes one wonder how they came to be iconic weapons in the first place, but leaving that aside for the moment: if these weapons confer status and authority, then who do they not do either of those things mechanically?

Why don't they give, say, a bonus to Interaction Tests with The Adepta and the Citizens of the Imperium? Why don't they give bonuses to Intimidate Heretics & Xenos?

But ultimately, why aren't they better weapons? If the weapons were as scary as they're supposed to be, they wouldn't need extra special Skill modifiers.

It's also tempting to try to mix up discussions like this, with the lack of a "what constitutes an acceptable level of arms" mechanics in the 40K games. Even a Rogue Trader or Lord Inquisitor is, presumably, going to raise a few eyebrows, if he's in full Power Armour and lugging around a Missile Launcher.

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Why would the mechanic reflect the social standing a weapon gives you?  Do you respect someone more because he's got a Rolls Royce?  Or that he's wearing real Oakley sunglasses?  It is a status symbol, but respect varies from people to people; a Heretic won't really be in awe of someone with a Bolter, and an Eldar will only see the crudeness of the weapon, while an Ork would imagine having it for himself for moar dakka.

 

As for better weapon..tearing is pretty good a special rule, and they are explosive crit and energy crit tables, which are less forgiving than impact. 

 

Of course there's always that old debate when Deathwatch came out and there was an uproar about the Astartes bolter doing 2d10+5 (oh, t's the same ammo, the same gun but bigger, forget about manufacturing conditions, quality of materials and workmanship) which then was brought down to 1d10+9, the same as the Vox Legi (and not the Vox Legi being as strong as an Astartes bolter)  What if a boltgun would have done 2d10+5 damage in Dark Heresy?  What now?  GMs and others saying how OP are bolters and how they houserule that thier players cannot have acess to them etc etc...

 

Most people seems to be iffy about that Angelus bolt rifle from IH doing 2d10 damage, or that Sgt. from Purge the Unclean having a 2d10 damage bolt pistol (Despite one being an Astartes bolt weapon and the other using Astartes quality ammunition)

'Can't talk about the plasma weapons, since I do not know how much damage the Astartes plasma weapons makes on the top of my head.

Edited by Braddoc

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Why would the mechanic reflect the social standing a weapon gives you?  Do you respect someone more because he's got a Rolls Royce?

The comparison you were making, was more along the lines of a holy relic, and people do indeed respond, often powerfully, to those.

More than that, you were suggesting people who need weapons to defend themselves and carry out their duties, would choose these particular weapons because they made up for their deficiencies as weapons in other ways.

 

I'll buy someone might buy an awkward watch because it's a status symbol. I don't for a second buy that someone who actually need a weapon, would choose an inferior one because it's a status symbol. If nothing else, 10 thousand years of evolution should have removed whatever produces that kind of thinking from the genepool.

 

As for better weapon..tearing is pretty good a special rule, and they are explosive crit and energy crit tables, which are less forgiving than impact.

 

All I really have to say to that, is that if you don't have a problem with the RAW stats, then trying to discuss how to fix them with you is kind of pointless.

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Yeah well...'guess I got lucky and didn't fell on player who abuse the RAW and try to do everything to exploit the loops instead of playing within the universe, hence why the Judge player goes around with a lasgun with a aux. grenade launcher attached to it.

 

I'm all for having an argument on the matter, but it appears to me, that not believing what you state does not warrant your attention.

 

And weaker weapon?  Really, it appears you are stuck in the mechanical aspect of the game...might as well have the Space Marine running around with best quality autoguns with fire selector, man stopper rounds and silencers, since it is clearly the superior weapon...

Edited by Braddoc

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I'll buy someone might buy an awkward watch because it's a status symbol. I don't for a second buy that someone who actually need a weapon, would choose an inferior one because it's a status symbol. If nothing else, 10 thousand years of evolution should have removed whatever produces that kind of thinking from the genepool.

 

Wait, are you implying the IoM isn't full of retards? And are you implying that citizens will not belief in the superiority of the Sacred Boltgun, no matter what experience they make? I am sure my Scum PC will.

 

Why do people insert modern day thinking into settings where such either does not exist (fantasy) or is rare (40K)? Modern day professionalism/optimization is a rare thing. Not even the Astartes practice it, except for a few chapters (Ultras, Raptors come to mind). I fail to see how frequently inserting such leads to a better narrative.

 

If you want to keep in the spirit of 40K, you, as a player, better consciously take sub-optimal outfits on most occasions. That would be good roleplay.

 

Alex

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Meltas are anti-tank weapons and have no place in the kinds of missions acolytes are supposed to be doing.

 

If you must just port over the Only War stats.

The Only war stats for Melta weaponry is actually even weaker than the DH counter part. The DH multi-metla is 4D10+12 pen 12w/melta. The OW MM is 2d10+16 pen 16(I think, sketchy on the pen) melta. In my only war game I recently had to beg my GM to let me have the DH version just so I had a chance of stopping Ork Trucks...

As for the rest of it. I fully agree that the concept of optimisation is poor role playing, especially for clandestine operatives like Acolytes. Something like a plasma gun or a power sword should be a pretty big giveaway that you're obviously powerful or connected. The weapon itself should be a serious threat to your cover story.

Edited by Cail

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Here are some weapon stats from the Dark Heresy 2 Beta:

  • Autogun -- Range 100m, RoF S/3/10, Damage 1d10+3 I, Pen 0, Clip 30, Rld Full
  • Boltgun -- Range 100m, RoF S/3/-, Damage 1d10+5 X, Pen 4, Clip 24, Rld Full, Tearing
  • Plasma Gun -- Range 90m, RoF S/2/-, Damage 1d10+7 E, Pen 6, Clip 40, Rld 5 Full, Maximal, Overheat
  • Meltagun -- Range 20m, RoF S/-/-, Damage 2d10+10 E, Pen 12, Clip 5, Rld Full, Melta

Maximal allows you to fire the weapon on overcharge mode if you desire. Overcharging a weapon increases range by 10m, damage by 1d10 and Pen by 2 but consumes 3 times more ammo and adds Recharge (so the gun has to cool for a round before firing again). Melta halves the target's armor at short range or less.

 

In the games we've played so far, the higher-tier weapons all seem to have their own distinct uses. Bolt weapons are great against lightly-armored grunts, and it's rare that a normal enemy survives more than two or three hits (and one-shot kills are entirely possible). Plasma weapons are a little weaker than boltguns when firing on light targets, but on maximal they can slag enemies far heavier than a anything a boltgun could handle. Meltaguns are the most dangerous by far, dealing more damage than an overcharged plasma gun, but their short range makes them difficult to use -- even the Dark Heresy combats in my campaign take place at long enough range that meltagun users have to maneuver a bit to get in optimum range.

 

Additionally, nobody has found autoguns with manstopper rounds to be better than the higher-tier weapons. Because the new version of DH uses the Black Crusade rules for full-auto fire, automatic weapons aren't the all-destroying terrors they used to be. Full-auto fire still causes many more hits than single-shot over an extended period, but plasma guns aren't overshadowed by autoguns anymore.

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Meltas are anti-tank weapons and have no place in the kinds of missions acolytes are supposed to be doing.

 

If you must just port over the Only War stats.

The Only war stats for Melta weaponry is actually even weaker than the DH counter part. The DH multi-metla is 4D10+12 pen 12w/melta. The OW MM is 2d10+16 pen 16(I think, sketchy on the pen) melta. In my only war game I recently had to beg my GM to let me have the DH version just so I had a chance of stopping Ork Trucks...

 

They double their Pen at half range. Did you include that?

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Exactly. Realistically speaking, any proper Melta attack will do 2d10+16 Pen 32. Compared to 4d10+12 Pen 12, I'll take the former over the latter any day, when stopping vehicles.

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Meltas are anti-tank weapons and have no place in the kinds of missions acolytes are supposed to be doing.

 

If you must just port over the Only War stats.

The Only war stats for Melta weaponry is actually even weaker than the DH counter part. The DH multi-metla is 4D10+12 pen 12w/melta. The OW MM is 2d10+16 pen 16(I think, sketchy on the pen) melta. In my only war game I recently had to beg my GM to let me have the DH version just so I had a chance of stopping Ork Trucks...

 

They double their Pen at half range. Did you include that?

 

Yes, I did. I am fully aware of the rules. Vehicles are crazy strong, and my multimelta is yet to score a kill, even with talents like Tank Hunter and Mighty Shot added in.

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Yes, I did. I am fully aware of the rules. Vehicles are crazy strong, and my multimelta is yet to score a kill, even with talents like Tank Hunter and Mighty Shot added in.

Wow, what sort of vehicles are you lot facing? My OW group happily takes down Sentinels and Chimerae.

A Russ and a few Daemonengines (Helldrake, Maulerfiend, Forgefiend) are on the list as well.

Most of those before we picked up a melta specialist.

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Mostly just Ork Trukks and things when this was happening. The issue isn't killing them per se, but that their purpose is to deliver troops. By the time they are in range you can normally only get one shot (which isnt enough to actually kill a trukk without RF, and I am yet to roll a ten even with 4 dice...) before they disembark. Obviously your experience may vary, but I have never been able to stop a single light vehicle in one shot.

I did however kill a rogue Imperial Knight by scaling up it with a grapple, ripping the pilot hatch off and punching the pilot to death with a sock puppet whilst I was on fire. So it kinda balances out.

Edited by Cail

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Mostly just Ork Trukks and things when this was happening. The issue isn't killing them per se, but that their purpose is to deliver troops. By the time they are in range you can normally only get one shot (which isnt enough to actually kill a trukk without RF, and I am yet to roll a ten even with 4 dice...) before they disembark. Obviously your experience may vary, but I have never been able to stop a single light vehicle in one shot.

I did however kill a rogue Imperial Knight by scaling up it with a grapple, ripping the pilot hatch off and punching the pilot to death with a sock puppet whilst I was on fire. So it kinda balances out.

Who needs a powerfist when a sock puppet will do the same job with more energy efficiency? :D

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Mostly just Ork Trukks and things when this was happening. The issue isn't killing them per se, but that their purpose is to deliver troops. By the time they are in range you can normally only get one shot (which isnt enough to actually kill a trukk without RF, and I am yet to roll a ten even with 4 dice...) before they disembark. Obviously your experience may vary, but I have never been able to stop a single light vehicle in one shot.

I did however kill a rogue Imperial Knight by scaling up it with a grapple, ripping the pilot hatch off and punching the pilot to death with a sock puppet whilst I was on fire. So it kinda balances out.

 

Without looking at the books and just going with what is in my head, an OW meltaweapon should usually bring a light vehicle down to crits in one hit.

 

Again though I'n not sure that this is really an issue in Dark Heresy. Melta weapons are extremely niche weapons that are good at only one thing. Which is killing vehicles at short range. Vehicles are not the kind of thing that acolytes are going to be equipping themselves to deal with in most circumstances.

 

Actually in any quasirelastic setting they would have no purpose as weapons at all. Killing vehicles up close is a bad idea. They would be used as mining tools.

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