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Fgdsfg

The value of Profit Factor on creation.

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Being a complete scrub at actual playing of Rogue Trader, I'm questioning the value of additional Group Profit Factors on character creation, based on the threads I've glanced at on the forum.

Just how valuable is the Group Profit Factor at the beginning of the game? For example, the A Long And Glorious History (My Great-Grandfather Built this Colony) Lineage costs a whooping 350xp and nets you a single Peer talent (notably, it is a free choice) and a single +1 to Group Profit Factor.

Compare this it the Of Extensive Means (Far-Reaching Contacts) that doesn't grant you just one or two Peer talents of your choice, but three, at the cost of 300xp. Or the A Product of Upbringing (New Blood) Trials & Travails option that nets you +1 to Group Profit Factor at the cost of 200xp and an extra Rival (Nobility) talent.

I love my Origin path, I love the background it cements for my character, I like the fact that I end up with a whole bunch of Peers and +4 to Group Profit Factor, provided I can talk a GM into letting me step over the XP limit of 500 starting XP by 50xp (New Blood 200xp, My Great-Grandfather Built this Colony 350xp).

If it's allowed, I will totally go with this character, come hell or high water, because I just love my concept.

But I can't help feeling bummed by the fact that I'm shelling out so much xp, especially when choosing the formative and defining aspects of my character pre-play, for something that appears to be fairly cheap once a game picks off, and that benefits my entire group more or less equally (although I will definitely argue that those +4 Profit Factors that come from me are mine and from external sources, should a venture tank or our profits take a dive). The value of starting Profit Factor is also relative to the overall starting Profit Factor decided by our Warrant of Trade and such.

Thoughts?

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HeavensThunderHammer said:

 Well, it makes the acquisition of new things easier. Every PF counts.

Well, yes, of course. But, to put it another way:

On character creation, would you consider:

550xp and Rival (Nobility)
to be an fair exchange for
Peer (Any) and +2 to the group's Profit Factor.

Now, if we pretend that Rival and Peer cancel each other out, that's +2 Profit Factor, a benefit for the entire group, for all of the starting experience of the character + 50xp.

I love the background I've saddled with here, I love my origin path, I love the fluff New Blood and My Great-Grandfather Built this Colony gets me, but it just feels a bit off. Again, I haven't actually played Rogue Trader, I'm just making a character and basing assumptions on the rules that I know and certain threads here on the forum, but.. yeah, of course, every bit helps but.. yeah.

Is my "Huh?" over all this unwarranted?

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I generally found that PF seems to be over-valued in character creation compared to how easy it is to get it during play. Which isn't to say that PF should be handed out casually, just that as Fgdsfg says, it seems to cost far more than it should.

At the very least, I'd say that any bonuses to PF like that should be made into SP instead, then converted back to PF if unspent as usual. Or at least doubling the PF bonuses/penalties in chargen.

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Fgdsfg said:

HeavensThunderHammer said:

 

 Well, it makes the acquisition of new things easier. Every PF counts.

 

Well, yes, of course. But, to put it another way:

 

On character creation, would you consider:

550xp and Rival (Nobility)
to be an fair exchange for
Peer (Any) and +2 to the group's Profit Factor.

Now, if we pretend that Rival and Peer cancel each other out, that's +2 Profit Factor, a benefit for the entire group, for all of the starting experience of the character + 50xp.

I love the background I've saddled with here, I love my origin path, I love the fluff New Blood and My Great-Grandfather Built this Colony gets me, but it just feels a bit off. Again, I haven't actually played Rogue Trader, I'm just making a character and basing assumptions on the rules that I know and certain threads here on the forum, but.. yeah, of course, every bit helps but.. yeah.

Is my "Huh?" over all this unwarranted?

 

Maybe ask your GM if you can have a different bonus instead, that is comparable to other advantages?

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HeavensThunderHammer said:

 

 

 Maybe ask your GM if you can have a different bonus instead, that is comparable to other advantages?

 

Well, yeah, that could work. But to be honest, I like the idea of starting with a total of +4 to Profit Factor that can be considered as, in the group context, coming directly from me - not one of our ventures. I get the opportunity to pretend that I'm the single richest person amongst them and that they depend upon me to afford shoe polish. Of course, the Rogue Trader can be all "It's my warrant, now 'innit?" but then I go ahead and ignore that, because my family brings a goddamn +4 to profit factor alone!

I just don't like the pricing and wanted to know if others found it strange - 550xp is atrociously expensive. I don't see how it could be worth more than 200xp. 250xp absolutely tops.

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Well . . . don't forget that you can also burn PF when acquiring something, particularly if it's hideously expensive (like a light cruiser). Each PF burned gives +10 to the acquisition roll, and as the penalty to the roll in this case is at minimum the starship's SP cost, those extra PF will come in handy. Under such circumstances, having an extra 4 PF as "disposable income" as it were will be appreciated, even if the warrant already provides for a large starting PF. I can certainly see a situation where a group with a 70 PF/ 20 SP warrant will try to acquire such a ship as one of their first acquisitions, 'cause quite frankly, that slow-as-molasses, handles-like-a-pregnant-yak tin can transport just ain't gonna cut it when the pirates start swarming.

Whether or not it's worth the XP cost, I don't know. It's ultimately going to depend on what your group is planning to do as their first endeavors.

-Kirov

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A high starting profit factor is worth a great deal.  My players started with a teensy tin can of a raider and a heap of PF.  They rapidly acquired vast quantities of really high end equipment and proceeded to kick arse hard and often.  (The command staff all have conversion fields, 100 meltaguns for the armsmen, heavy bolter with motion predictor, stabilisers, and inferno bolts, good Thunderhammer for the RT, subskin armour for all PC's, flotilla of gun-cutters, and much more...)

Cheers,

- V.

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 Having a high profit factor is awesome, but that extra 1% doesn't really due justice to the cost of getting the bonus for most packages that offer them. It seems that 1 PF is worth 150 XP given the various packages in Into the Storm, which is really questionable, because unless you burn them to make your free item amazingly broken, it's pretty pricey. Now don't get me wrong, being able to spend 3 PF for a +30 bonus to get a Best Quality Very Rare item, or a Good Quality Near Unique can be nice, but if you're using it as intended, it's a bit weak. Refunding 50 XP per point of FP that a background package offers is a reasonable way to help equalize things. 

New Blood is terrible; there's no way it's worth paying 200 XP. I'd personally add Peer in an appropriate group and bump the PF bonus up to 2. 

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Objulen said:

 

 Having a high profit factor is awesome, but that extra 1% doesn't really due justice to the cost of getting the bonus for most packages that offer them. It seems that 1 PF is worth 150 XP given the various packages in Into the Storm, which is really questionable, because unless you burn them to make your free item amazingly broken, it's pretty pricey. Now don't get me wrong, being able to spend 3 PF for a +30 bonus to get a Best Quality Very Rare item, or a Good Quality Near Unique can be nice, but if you're using it as intended, it's a bit weak. Refunding 50 XP per point of FP that a background package offers is a reasonable way to help equalize things. 

New Blood is terrible; there's no way it's worth paying 200 XP. I'd personally add Peer in an appropriate group and bump the PF bonus up to 2. 

 

Well, Peer (Any) is clearly valued 100xp each, exemplified by the Far-Reaching Contacts Lineage, which grants three Peer of choice at the cost of 300xp. My Great-Grandfather Built This Colony costs 350xp, and gives a single Peer (Any) as well as +1 Profit Factor. This suggests to me that a single point of Profit Factor is valued at 250xp each, on creation.

The New Blood Trials and Travails costs 200xp, and gives you Rival (Nobility), as well as +1 Profit Factor. This suggests to me that a Rival talent is valued at a discount of -50xp.

Compare this to the Lost Dynasty Trials and Travails option. +1 Profit Factor and +1 Fate Point, for 400xp. If Profit Factor is valued at 250xp, that means that the Fate Point is valued at 150xp. That's 250xp for an small bonus to something that is largely overshadowed by the rest of the group's profit factor;  and 150xp for a bonus to a roll per session and a whole extra life if you end up burning it. That feels very odd to me - if anything, Fate Points should definitely be much more expensive than Profit  Factors. They are more valuable, have a higher potential effect on your character (as in, you don't die if you have one), and are harder to gain once the game is underway.

Compare this to the apparent value of negative Profit Factor. The Another Generation of Shame Lineage costs 100xp, gives you Carouse as a trained skill, as well as Peer (Underworld). For the sake of the argument, let's assume that Peer (Underworld) is worth the same as Peer (Any) - 100xp; it's certainly not worth more; arguable less. But on top of this, Another Generation of Shame reduce Profit Factor by 2. If a reduction was valued at the same as an increase, that's -500xp! If we assume that, like Rival compared to Peer, that it is worth half in reduction of xp-cost (Rival is -50xp, while Peer is 100xp), that's still -250xp. At a price for Another Generation of Shame at 100xp, that means that Carouse is valued at an 250xp on creation, which.. actually, that is totally reasonable. I checked the price of carouse and it's upgrades, and they're all listed at a price of 200xp. So taking into account that this allows you to grab, for example, a +10 on creation, thus warranting the +50xp price of Carouse, that would leave Another Generation of Shame at about +/- zero experience cost.

However, you have to remember that each Origin chart choice should by itself be worth at least a couple of hundred xp, at no cost at all, if you're looking at the completely no-cost origins in the Source Book.

With all this in mind, I would lower the value of Profit Factor to no higher than 100xp, while valuing negative profit factor at -300xp. While this is a quick fix and inconsistent with the apparent (?) half-xp-value-when-counted-negative, it would alleviate the issues I see with the pricing of Profit Factor on creation.

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I'm looking mostly at Born to Wealth. 2 PF for 300 xp definitively sets PF at 150 xp per point. Fate Points would be 250 xp, as per Trials and Travails, which makes sense, given that their extra lives, extra rolls,and extra Faith Powers (if you have them).

 

Hence why New Blood is entirely worthless. I can pay 200 xp for a negative and 1 PF, or 300 xp for 2 PH without a negative. It's an easy choice, IMHO.

Negative PF I haven't looked at too hard, but generally speaking, dropping something should be worth close to what it costs to increase it, if not equal, so -100 XP for negative PF is fine with me.

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Objulen said:

I'm looking mostly at Born to Wealth. 2 PF for 300 xp definitively sets PF at 150 xp per point. Fate Points would be 250 xp, as per Trials and Travails, which makes sense, given that their extra lives, extra rolls,and extra Faith Powers (if you have them).

Well, you're obviously right - Born to Wealth clearly lists 300xp for 2 Profit Factor. I don't know how I could've missed that. Regardless, that just isn't consistent with the pricing of Profit Factor amongst the other Lineages and Origin choices.

It's almost as if they counted Profit Factor at 250xp, but when they created Born to Wealth, they realized that "Holy ****, 500xp? That's just unreasonable." and lowered it to 300xp.

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That's possible. Personally, I get more of a feeling that the background packages aren't necessarily based on a standard format for skills, talents, etc. 100% of the time. Part of that is understandable; these background packages do allow for careers to gain access to skills and abilities that they normally don't get or don't get for a long time. However, I still feel, and agree, that PF should be far more standardized, especially since it affects everyone equally no matter what career you are.

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