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blackwell

Only War

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The simple solution is to have all Orgryn PCs be Bone 'Eads. If they bring them out I'd expect rules for abhumans (including Ogryn) to be in RT though, as I think it would make a better fit. There's still plenty of materiel available for OW but I'd imagine these and Vehicles to be in RT (seperately).

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bogi_khaosa said:

According to the IG codex, to be able to understand tactics, Ogryns need a bone'ead, so your character isn't going to be charging anybody on any commissar's orders because he won't understand what that means. (Leaving to one side whether or not the description in the codex makes any sense, since I think we can agree that Ogryns are smarter than dogs, who can handle tactics.)

OK, there are two issues here.

1. Is it possible to role-play something with an IQ of 50.  In a sense, yes, in the sense in which you can say "I do such and such," just as how a scriptwriter can incoporate a dog into a script. However, you will not be able to do it accurately, since it is impossible to put yourself into the mental space of something that intellectually or psychologically very different from you, for the same reason it is impossible to imagine what it is like to be a cat. The most I can do is to imagine myself smaller, with four legs and the ability to see in the dark, and I can't talk. Which isn't what a cat is.

2. Why would you want to? Something with that level of intelligence has no depth of personality. There is no role to play other than "I hit it with my stick/I eat the pretty food/I run form the loud scary noise." Look at five-year-olds you know and ask yourself if you really want to play one.

In practice, I suspect that Ogryn PCs (or five-year-old PCs) would in fact inevitably be role-played as really strong adult humans who speak funny and are "stupid" when it doesn't matter to the plot -- they won't be able to add, but when the player realizes that the engine is going to go critical, the Ogryn is going to somehow find a way to get into the escape boats, despite not knowing what an engine is or going critical is.

Well I once turned up to a table at a round robin rpg tournament and was handed the character sheet of a seven year old girl in a convent school.  All the other pcs were little girls too.  No I have never been religous or believed in god, I have never been in a boarding school, I have never been a little girl and I most certainly do not claim to know how females think.  Our mission was to organise a midnight feast.

However, sneaking through the darkened hallways to the scullery to steal cookies was an anxiety filled moment, fearful that the mistress would catch me.  We really were getting in to the situation when we got caught.  Out comes my characters high 'sycophant' skill and I acted my ass off (I am 185cm, 100kg fit and hairy and anything but a sycophant), it was hilarious not only trying to get into the little girls mind to grease my way out of trouble, but it was equally amusing for the rest of the group watching me squirm while I did so. 

Your relativist position against Ogryn PCs seems to deny that I was 'truely' roleplaying because I can't truely get into her head.  That is the exact same logical structure of the argument you have used against Ogryns.  Half of RPing is getting into their heads, but for me and equally important part and the fun bit is acting my character.  One could sit in a dark room getting one's rocks off thinking about what a character would think, but becoming him at the table is more fun for me.  Playing an Ogryn would be no different because we have enough points of similarity to start from to 'create' a personality.  Do I know how my feral world assassin would thinhk, I've never murdered anyone.  But I take his attitudes and quirks at the table, it's great.  This point about 'creation' is important, because these characters do not exist, we create them entirely ourselves, and so to say that you cannot truely get into the head of an Ogryn you made up is to say you cannot understand your own fiction.  There is no objective truth in the matter.  If we all gave up because something was too different, in role playing or real life, then the haters who say "you cannot undertstand 'me', 'that' or 'us' because you're not the same" have won. It wold be a sad day for human evolution if it turned out that our ability to creatively interpret the world in an attempt to gain understanding and communicate had just been 'bad' roleplaying all along.  

Of course we impose our own consciousness on our characters, every single one of them, because how could we possibly not? Your final point is one that applies equally to any character, and is an issue of player verses character knowledge, not an objection to Ogryns.  How that is resolved is up to each group, and I think we all agree that it is impolite to tell anyone they are not 'properly role playing' because they do it diffrerently to you.  

Would we allow an Ogryn PC in our current DH game?  No frakkin way, it would be silly.  Would I allow one in a slightly off-the-cuff RT game?  Absolutely, it would be hilarious.  Yes taking on another personality is at the core of role playing, but not the only aspect.  There is nothing wrong with comic relief in the right campaign, ask anyone who plays an Ork.

Wow Bogi, I don't thik I've been this stirred up before.  What a great thing these forums are.  I look at your other posts and usually find myself agreeing or nodding so don't take anything I've said personally, but boy oh boy this is a raw nerve for me.  It seems like you're trying to place limits on what other people's games can be, and I'm just not down with that. It's like the government telling us how to live, I just don't buy it.  

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I am genuinely more interested in dicussion that argument.  By the way, just because I disagree, that doesn't mean I disrespect.  You arguments are always well though out and well expressed, and I have a lot of respect for that.

 

 

 

 

 

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bogi_khaosa said:

If you guys want to play something whose range of role-playing opportunities will be "hit thing, look at pretty colors, sleep, run away from loud noise" I can't stop you.

Actually I personally would only play an Ogryn if it was agreed we were playing an off the cuff or tongue in cheek game.  Normally I prefer something much more sophisticated like:

"Tell me where the heretics are or I'll frakkin kill you!"  

LOL.

Okay, change of pace, how about something more constructive then?  Ideas for Ogryn PCs anyone?

Frud Bonebender, sole survivor of the Acacia Ridge massacre in which an entire IG Battalion was rendered into little globs of meat except Frud who was rescued by the Rogue Trader Sneaky O'Leary (who was taking advantage of the carnage to steal some priceless artifact or whatever).  Now Frud blames himself for the massacre (actually he feels guilty for being the only tribe member to survive and he is too stupid to understand those emotions).  As such Frud now feels an almost uncontrollable urge to gain acceptance in the eyes of his new companions, even if they currently see him as the expendable meat-axe he so obviously is.  And a twist, what will Frud think if he finds out the RT has stolen the very artifact that Frud's unit was meant to protect?  Would Frud remeber he had to protect it? - probably. Could the RT convince Frud he has 'rescued' it - probably.

Now, most of those concepts could be grasped by a seven year old I believe.  Could anyone role play this?

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 Back on topic, there is an entry in the core book that always grabbed my attention, p295.  While referring to the Imperial Administratum regulators in the markets of Hive /Tarsus on Scintilla;

"The Adepts are considered above the violence that flourishes between the other traders, partly because they represent thew interests of the Holy Emporer, but mainly because they have the very best protection in the form of veteran soldiers from the death world of Mortressa."          

Yeah, I want to hear about those bad asses.  I think there will be good support for different regiments, probably a mix of iconic ones, but I would like to see something DH specific, like the Storm dudes in DeathWatch.  Some lost regiment made up of those who have seen a bit too much, and of course  Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.  Put them in too.

 

 

 

 

 

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An Ogryn have no place on a standar DH campaing, like a space marine. A lot of people complain about the not pressence of astartes on the DH core rulebook but, how do you expecto to go to the Underhive with a 2,5 meters "human" and dont have problemas with the infiltration?. An ogryn is like the same....and add that they are not very smart....An Ogryn fits more on Rogue Trader or maybe on Black Crussade, but on Dark heresy only if it is a military campaing and not a normal Inquisitorial campaing. Even a Tech-priest can be shrouded with a a big mantle....an Ogryn or a Astartes not.

About the ratlings....well....I dont like it....So I will dont give my opinion about them as PCs

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This is an excerpt from the little bit of fluff accompanying the announcement of Only War in the last Knowledge is Power release schedule,

"Our destination is famous for the quality of Ogryn who live there and many of them have
been intellectually augmented. They tattoo themselves
with the names of their allies and some even serve as
living banners for their platoon. Hopefully we can bring
one of these beasts along with us."

It seems as though FFG is aware of the intellectual limitations of your standard Ogryn and are compensating accordingly. I think it's a safe bet we will see Ogryn in the book.

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H.B.M.C. said:

If you can roleplay the utterly alien mind of an Ork or a Kroot, then you can roleplay an ab-human.

BYE

Nothing imagined by a human will ever be 'utterly alien'. In this case both Kroot and Orks are based on exaggerated human concepts. Ogryn are the same, and shouldn't be difficult to roleplay. They would be really boring though, like orks.

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Ogryn are totally plausible; Bone 'Eads are smart enough to function as a leader of sorts, and Ogryn have always had some level of cunningness. Look at Nork Dedork, for example. As for "undercover ogryn" nobody will ever look at one and not realize it's an ogryn, but it's possible one is working as hired muscle for a mob boss, or a traitor ogryn, or a mutant who looks like an ogryn, or hell, maybe you just keep him in the back of the grav truck until you get to Cultists-R-Us. An ogryn might not be the best at putting together complicated chains of financial evidence, but nothing says an Ogryn can't show up with the other Acolytes and notice something out of place, or pick up a strange smell. If your argument against them is that they can't fit into your campaign based on "The Spy Who Came In From The Cold" and thus they shouldn't be in the book, then there's a whole load of other stuff that shouldn't be in there either.

tl;dr baaawww they're including something found in warzones in a war book.

PS: I hope they include ratlings. I've always wanted to make a Ratling sniper.

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Nigh7gaun7 said:

As for "undercover ogryn" nobody will ever look at one and not realize it's an ogryn, but it's possible one is working as hired muscle for a mob boss, or a traitor ogryn, or a mutant who looks like an ogryn, or hell, maybe you just keep him in the back of the grav truck until you get to Cultists-R-Us. An ogryn might not be the best at putting together complicated chains of financial evidence, but nothing says an Ogryn can't show up with the other Acolytes and notice something out of place, or pick up a strange smell.

It is good to see other people that share my view that just because something can't put on a hat and fake moustache doesn't mean they can't be part of an investigative team.  If the extent of your RP ability is based on sterotypes and cliches I feel bad for you, there is a lot of personality to explore, even in (some could say especially in) beings that are of lower intelligence.

And +1 on the Ratlings!

 

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There's another thing i've spotted which I would like to see in Only War although it might be straying a bit from the imperial guard. It is mentioned in both Creatures Anathema and the profile for Felroth Gelt in The Radical's Handbook that he is associated with a group known as the Black Regiment which i'm assuming is the storm trooper regiment that he personally commanded in the field.

With this in mind i'd love to see an alternate career rank which would allow a guardsman to be inducted into the black regiment although it would probably need to be available only to characters who have reached level seven or eight.

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 Anyone who has played a video game with a seven year old or is old enough to have a child that age will realize that they are not stupid! Children often pick up on things that us "adults" are completely oblivious to. Also.. An Ogryn might not be my first choice for undercover work in the Upper spires of scintilla; But what about the soot warrens of tranch? Or in an underhive where mutaion is rampant?. There are many places in the 40k universe where an Ogryn would not be the least bit out of place! It is up to the Gm to ensure that his game and players fit together in some sort of "logical" manner.

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Radwraith said:

 Anyone who has played a video game with a seven year old or is old enough to have a child that age will realize that they are not stupid!

But, Ogryns are stupid. They're, well, mentally retarded, not children.

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bogi_khaosa said:

Radwraith said:

 

 Anyone who has played a video game with a seven year old or is old enough to have a child that age will realize that they are not stupid!

 

 

But, Ogryns are stupid. They're, well, mentally retarded, not children.

One need not be able to illuminate the physics of warp travel in order to be useful in an investigation. BTW; Remember that Albert Einstein was technically retarded (He was a mathmatical savant). My point is... certainly Ogryns will be ...different; But they are a possibility for the right Gm and good roleplayers!

Things I would like to see in Only War:

A more detailed version of the Mass combat rules presented in "Battlefleet Koronus". (one that gives values for Xenos and specialist troops)

A lord General career (An ascended career)

A commissar career (Probably an ascended career)

Vehicles not presented elsewhere: (Leman Russ, Baneblade and Thunderbolt fighters as well as "Standard transport vehicles" like groundcars, trucks, etc.).

Elite advance careers for specialists such as strategists (Adepts)

And finally: Some indication of  what FFG is doing regarding the "Only War" Supplement!

 

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Radwraith said:

bogi_khaosa said:

 

Radwraith said:

 

 Anyone who has played a video game with a seven year old or is old enough to have a child that age will realize that they are not stupid!

 

 

But, Ogryns are stupid. They're, well, mentally retarded, not children.

 

 

One need not be able to illuminate the physics of warp travel in order to be useful in an investigation. BTW; Remember that Albert Einstein was technically retarded (He was a mathmatical savant). My point is... certainly Ogryns will be ...different; But they are a possibility for the right Gm and good roleplayers!

Things I would like to see in Only War:

A more detailed version of the Mass combat rules presented in "Battlefleet Koronus". (one that gives values for Xenos and specialist troops)

A lord General career (An ascended career)

A commissar career (Probably an ascended career)

Vehicles not presented elsewhere: (Leman Russ, Baneblade and Thunderbolt fighters as well as "Standard transport vehicles" like groundcars, trucks, etc.).

Elite advance careers for specialists such as strategists (Adepts)

And finally: Some indication of  what FFG is doing regarding the "Only War" Supplement!

 

While einstein was a Mathmatics Savant he was not "technically" retarded. It's theorized that he may have had Aspergers syndrome an Autism Spectrum disorder. No real diagnosis is possible though since he is dead.

Back on topic. An Ogryn player character would fit just fine in an "only war" game. A bunch of muscle to smash Orks is a valuable asset. Just because they have low intelligence does not mean they cannot be role played. They would still have thoughts, emotions, feelings and opinions.

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Yeah, I too would like to see some indication that FFG is doing Only War... I mean Deathwatch just got its third sourcebook announced and all we DH fans got for Christmas was the Haarlock trilogy compilation. Sure, one can view the RT book Hostile Acquisitions as an extension for Book of Judgement as it supposedly has a lot of material for the Calixis Sector, but come on!

On the other hand, maybe in the meantime Only War has been upgraded to a 256-page supplement. That would be cool.

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 In our ascension level game I'd love to have an Ogryn as my Crusader's minion.  Pretty much any thing less won't be worth it, that or a Squat armed with a shiv. 

I'm afraid to get my hopes up that we will see true a Commissar career, with some unique traits for that career and a snazzy hat. 

 

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csabesz said:

Sure, one can view the RT book Hostile Acquisitions as an extension for Book of Judgement as it supposedly has a lot of material for the Calixis Sector, but come on!



As somebody who recently bought the PDF or "HA" I advise you to drop this assumption immediately. 

@Only war & the ogrny debate
Since the BoM "Sisters of Battle" become rather handicap if their free-servoarmor-bonus is taken away because of the non-undercover-aspect ( Faith-Talents do not make up for the immense cost increase in regard to anything else!) I see no reason why FFG should not send in the clowns...aehm..Ogryns! If THIS (the "new" Sisters) made enough sense to include them into a book...

@What I hope to see
- An adaption of the Las-Setting-rules from BC to DH (just to have them officially)
- Rules Suggestion for group-combat on squad & platoon level (I see no reason why I shall not give my Rank 5+ the support of some troops as they storm in the badguy HQ)
- More suggestions/examples on the use of Commen Lore (War), Scholastic Lore (Tacticae Imperialis) and Command skills
- Rules suggestions for "harsh environments" (cold, heat, jungle, day-to-day surival)
- rules for "tank busting" and more detailed rules Sentinels (players feel good if they can take out a tank & Sentinels are the kind of vehicle I would love to give them)
- more suggestions for crude prohestetic bionics (we NEED more bionics in here!)
- NEW MINOR POWERS WITH BATTLEFIELD USE
- SOME OFFICIAL DECLARATIONS THAT STOP THIS "OH! PSYKER HAD AN UPSALA! LETS BLAST HIS HAD OF! I AM GUARDSMAN!" approaches (which was a feat the 40K-TT only assumed with a Commissar ...)

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bogi_khaosa said:

But, Ogryns are stupid. They're, well, mentally retarded, not children.


 

Hi,

I don´t think that this statement is 100% correct. Aside from those Ogryns raised under imperial (or other "humans") care, Ogryns are mentioned to hail from feral worlds where they are "the natives". 

A tribe of people 100% made up out of only stupid/mentally retarded people would not be able to survive. Since Ogrnys had been mentioned to live that way the conclusion is that they are not "stupid/retarded". At least not those hailing from said environment.

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Why do so many holler about the very very heavy stuff, like Baneblades, Ogryns and specialized troops when they talk about this supplement??

Do almost everyone want to play overmaxed superpowerful munchkin stuff, instead of ordinary Imperial Guard-men and -women?

I mean, the really interesting and fun thing is IMO when ordinary or hero-material IG soldiers get together in an atmospheric setting and try to get through everydays grittiness in the Dark Milleniums sometimes very deadly battle arenas. And are there a hostility towards Dan Abnett's way of telling his great stories of how Gaunt's Ghosts manage to it make in place after place? I think they're absolutely wonderful and stand as a great example of how change can be made by men and women of very mixed backgrounds.
 


My own idea for my first IG scenario goes like this (I don't think my players here in Sweden are gonna see and read this);

The regiment arrives on their first real assignment on a newly defended and reconquered planet that has been under the near total-take over from a Tyranid splinter swarm. All kinds of bad ass fighting has been here and done with, even some Astartes has been involved, or so the rumour goes. But that was like a month ago, and now the player characters regiment has landed and is assigned as interim PDF/guarding regimental force during the time the planet is recovering and rebuilding (some 6 months).

Then one day during the second week since their landing, the player characters company gets the duty to patrol an outback area, where there's been reports of some badly wounded smaller Tyranids. stragglers since the cleansing, which becomes highest priority for patrolling and after-cleansing.

The player company captain, a real stiff-upper-lip upper-class-type which always dresses his best, looses his highly prised family heirloom sword. The thing is: it got stuck on the backplates on a wounded hormagaunt who was then seen running away real fast with it, before anyone could even start reacting.

So, the player characters own sarge volunteers for the assignment to get the sword back and track the "critter" and kill it. Problem is, the "critter" isn't alone.

And on from there. Well, that's the general outline of the adventure, what do you think?

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dracopticon said:

 

Why do so many holler about the very very heavy stuff, like Baneblades, Ogryns and specialized troops when they talk about this supplement??

 

 

As a long time IG player and fan I expect to see some stuff that is unique to the IG.  My list includes.

-real Commissares, not what ever they have in the IH book.

-abhumans such as Ogryns and Ratlings (they have not received a lot of love, even on tabletop)

-Signature IG vehicles such as Russ, Chimeras, Hellhounds, and other sorts of ordnance projecting platforms.

-The Baneblade, nothing says IG is in the house like one of these.

Why even get a supplement if there is no specialized options?  Isn't that the whole point of having one.  Any thing mundane can already be done in with the existing rules.

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