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Loophole Master

Fireball !!

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Yes... I cannot wait to buy two of these so I can field both options, or maybe 2 Fireball's... EPIC battle lies ahead, though it makes me all the more curious what the Punisher will have for stats, and the Axis Walkers...

I was not expecting Armor 7. I was thinking 6 at the most with roughly the same number of Health Points. The Scout Vehicle ability was unexpected and already has me thinking strategy... So many options considering it can be half way across a standard map by the end of turn 2. And also looking forward to carrying troops down field to deal some serious combo damage. Then the weapons and Dozer Blade just top it all off too well. Too excited to field these and get some dice rolling.

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I was thinking about this "range 3 napalm thrower" and I think there are some issues that better be clarified about that. With flamethrowers being able to hit all units between the shooter and its target, and with the examples given in the Revised Rulebook, I can see some issues arising.

Let's take a look at the most obvious and simple case first. I'm using a Hot Dog in the example cause I don't have an upper view of the Fireball, and we don't yet know how this whole thing with it occupying 4 squares work. I've surrounded it with enemies, with no units blocking LOS to keep things simple. The red lines are the LOS, and the yellow ones are the individual shooting options, with dots representing hits.

Fireball1.jpg

Don't think anybody has any problems with example A, right? Pretty straightforward. However, if we look at the rulebook example, we'll see a couple of different things. I've highlighted the LOS and possible attack paths cited in the example:

HotDog.jpg

As you can see, when the Hot Dog attacks Hans, the LOS doesn't really cross the square occupied by the Heavy Laser Grenadiers, it only skims its corner. If that means that you can hit a unit if the LOS simply skims its corner, then we have some other possibilities up for discussion:

Fireball2.jpg

And again looking at the rulebook example above, note that the Hans is really only at Range 1 from the Hot Dog, and yet its attack is hitting the Heavy Laser Grenadiers on the way. That means our Range 3 Fireball can attack some targets at Range 2 and still hit two other targets on the way, or maybe take a more "scenic" route to get to a Range 3 target:

Fireball3.jpg

C1 is the most questionable one, since the LOS doesn't even touch that 1st square. In C2 the target walker is at range 3, but instead of getting there with two diagonals, it's using two straights and a diagonal, which still counts as Range 3. C3 is very consistent with the rulebook example.

 

So, what do you think, which examples do you think are not possible, and why?

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A3 & C2 raise my curiosity the most due to the fact that A3 seems to be passing through 4 units, and C2 seems to be passing through 5 units.

I am guessing, so far, that the range 3 functions similar to the range 2, where you just have to pick X number of squares and it only damages those X number of specific units. Otherwise I really see your point with many of these examples and don't want to put too much educated guessing on the table until the next rule set comes out and they hopefully clear up some past issues and hopefully see these new rules presented in a clear way.

And since, from what I have heard, they take up 4 squares it can get a little interesting when just placing random tiles for games, and buildings and such. And the point value seems a little steep, but considering the amount of damage it has the potential to inflict, it can be seen as reasonable. If a good strategist can get a reactivation at the right moment, i could potentially take out a large number of units with good rolls.

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Can't see the point of worrying about every hypothetical problem, its not like any of these examples are ever going to happen, unless somebody is a real bad Axis player or real good I suppose, if he has all his army left to corner a lone Allied tank.

My concern is the Scout ability, don't know what FFG are thinking of here.

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Major Mishap said:

My concern is the Scout ability, don't know what FFG are thinking of here.

My best guess there is that they wanted to stick with the Allied theme of speed without giving it the Fast ability. The ability for it to move 2 spaces and fire every turn would potentially be extremely devastating. Though I agree it is very odd.

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Yup.  Basically they have a rule that any unit with short ranged weapons (up to 5?) automatically get the Fast ability to compensate.  This may be good for gameplay and balance (could reduce points cost instead?) but makes little sense or logic.  Another example, the fast (accoeding to blurb) recon move the same as everybody else, but the heavily equiped BBQ squad laden down with flamethrowers and demo charges can move Fast.

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Major Mishap said:

Can't see the point of worrying about every hypothetical problem, its not like any of these examples are ever going to happen, unless somebody is a real bad Axis player or real good I suppose, if he has all his army left to corner a lone Allied tank.

Of course you'll never have all these enemies laid out in front of you like that, but I think it will be quite common to have a couple of enemies around, and a couple of friendly units who could take some collateral damage, and that's why it's important that we are clear on what options we have to hit our enemies while avoiding our friends. Unfortunately, with their track record, I doubt the rules in Cerberus will clarify this issue entirely.

 

Major Mishap said:

My concern is the Scout ability, don't know what FFG are thinking of here.

I'm glad they gave it Scout. When they were talking about speed being one of the Fireball's strong points, I was worried they would give it Fast, which would be really odd.

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I wonder if you'll be able to deploy the Fireball with a unit already being trasnported on it.

On a different note, I am guessing you aren't allowed to load and unload troops on the same turn.  Otherwise you could use the fireball to quickly leapfrog a bunch of units up the field (move into the back of the fireball, and move out the front, and all the units get an extra space of movement.)

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felkor said:

I wonder if you'll be able to deploy the Fireball with a unit already being trasnported on it.

 

I think it will be like attaching heroes to squads, you need to deploy the Fireball with the soldiers already inside, and once they leave the tank, they can't come back.

I liked that Armor 3 soldiers occupy two spaces inside the tank. So I guess with the 6 spaces available you can mix and match, like having an Armor 3 hero on his own and a couple of Armor 2 specops squads.

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Loophole Master said:

felkor said:

I wonder if you'll be able to deploy the Fireball with a unit already being trasnported on it.

 

I think it will be like attaching heroes to squads, you need to deploy the Fireball with the soldiers already inside, and once they leave the tank, they can't come back.

I liked that Armor 3 soldiers occupy two spaces inside the tank. So I guess with the 6 spaces available you can mix and match, like having an Armor 3 hero on his own and a couple of Armor 2 specops squads.

 

It would be interesting if there was some way to hide who is being transported from your opponent until they disembark.

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felkor said:

It would be interesting if there was some way to hide who is being transported from your opponent until they disembark.

Humm.. yeah, this could be an interesting house rule. Kepp the cards of the units in the walker flipped over and only reveal them when they step out.

Yes, you can't stick an Armor 3 squad with a hero in the walker, but then again, you'd have little reason to want to do that. The allied Armor 3 squads all have Move 2 and Jump, they can manage on their own. It's the Armor 2 squads that would benefit the most from the free ride.

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felkor said:

I wonder if you'll be able to deploy the Fireball with a unit already being trasnported on it.

On a different note, I am guessing you aren't allowed to load and unload troops on the same turn.  Otherwise you could use the fireball to quickly leapfrog a bunch of units up the field (move into the back of the fireball, and move out the front, and all the units get an extra space of movement.)

Guessed correct, you have to finish an activation before starting another.

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They may put more restrictions on how the Fireball gets to use its napalm thrower, but I don't have any major issues with the examples given.  It keeps the rules simple, and could be seen as the napalm thrower arcing its attack across multiple targets.

Flamethrowers use a high arc for maximum range, because the are pumping out the fuel at slow speeds.  Think of the attack as being like spraying across a group of people with a water hose.  You can easily arc above some to get others that are behind them, and within a specific amount of time, you would have to choose where to start close and work your way out.

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Loophole Master said:

Yes, you can't stick an Armor 3 squad with a hero in the walker, but then again, you'd have little reason to want to do that. The allied Armor 3 squads all have Move 2 and Jump, they can manage on their own. It's the Armor 2 squads that would benefit the most from the free ride.

Actually, the upcoming Paratroopers + their Related Hero do not have Jump (or, I believe, Speed 2). So that is an armored 3 squad that could benefit from the walker, but could not do so and include its related hero.

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 Yeah, you're right. Action Jackson is only Move 1 and without Jump, and I guess the British Paratroopers must be pretty much the same thing. Well, I guess Jackson will have to miss the ride, poor chap.

But anyway, back to the Punisher, I've just thought up another attack possibility. Technically it seems possible, though I'm sure it would be controversial to try and pull this off on the game table. I've put a friendly squad in there to show what the attacker is trying to dodge. I also included only walkers as targets, to show that none of them are really blocking the LOS to the final target, and yet they can all be hit on the way.

Fireball4.jpg

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Your close walker would have to be infantry, or it would block line of sight to the second walker.  Change that, and it's workable, and doable with a 'fire hose.'

Again, think of the water hose analogy.  It would be quite possible to spray the closest target, raise the elevation and track to the second, and then move on to the third, all without significantly endangering the friendly squad.

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Gimp said:

Your close walker would have to be infantry, or it would block line of sight to the second walker.  Change that, and it's workable, and doable with a 'fire hose.'

 

That's the real issue. The actual attack is against the 3rd walker, the rest is just collateral damage. Against that 3rd walker, the Fireball has LOS, even with the 1st and 2nd target being walkers as well. Sure, if we traced LOS against the 2nd walker, the 1st one would get on the way, but that's not what we're doing. This is a single attack, not 3 simultaneous independent attacks. That's why I was worried about this Range 3 flamethrower, it just opens up a big can of worms.

And the problem is, there's no chance in hell FFG's rules will go into such detail as to make it really clear which of my examples above are possible and which aren't (unless they go back and change the flamethrower rule example they published in the Revised Set).

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In your examples only D is the illegal shot as it doesn't follow the rules.

1) The shot will hit any in its path (the actual path is the LOS.)

2) If it crosses a diagonal then you choose which square the shot passes through.

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I dont really see an issue with the range 3 napalm thrower. if you read the rules for flamethrowers in the original rulebook (Page 21) i think it pretty much cover everything. As you can see below it clearly states that you need to have LOS to every target independetly and that the fire of the flamethrower does not continue beyond a square blocking LOS.

htx5F.jpg

Fc7ii.jpg

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