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Deepstriker

Help on dealing with reckless squad leader

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Bolt of Change said:

That said I don't think that Space Wolves give a **** about the codex.

In this case, that's the wrong attitude for the Wolf to have. If he's in charge of a bunch of guys who DO give a **** about the Codex, then he needs to learn that, understand that, and work with that.

Otherwise, he's not suited to lead them.

cf: If I were a proponent of a specific religion, but all my staff were rigid and pious followers of another religion, would I be a good manager if I vocally never gave a **** about their religion, bad-mouthed it, and never bothered to learn about their culture's way of doing things? No: I'd be an arrogant moron, unfit to lead them.

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Siranui said:

No: I'd be an arrogant moron, unfit to lead them.

And in DW terms, that means you'd not be likely to be elected leader every again.  Some people don't like the fact that the leader in DW is elected, and doensn't have absolute authority, but IMO it works- primarily because this is an RPG and events like the one described in this forum happen all the time in RPGs, and it provides for a very clean solution to the problem.

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But that's not how 40K works. The Space Wolves are a proud chapter and have their own traditions and I don't think they are thinking all that highly of the Codex. The have an oral tradition and don't understand the written tradition. I suppose in the eyes of most Sw the other brother should just man up and have an ale.

 

Which explains why the Wolves don't rise to leadership positions in the Deathwatch usually.

 

Alex

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ak-73 said:

Which explains why the Wolves don't rise to leadership positions in the Deathwatch usually.

 

We don't actually know that.

That doesn't actually matter, anyway. To a similar degree, you've got Ultramarines being placed in situations where they're required to lead those who don't adhere to the Codex as strictly or completely as they do. In pretty much every case, you've got a situation where the leader is faced with leading those whose traditions and ideals don't match their own to some degree or another, and a parallel situation where the members of the Kill-Team are following a warrior who has been chosen as their leader in spite of differences in beliefs and ideology.

That's kind of the point.

A Deathwatch Marine is expected to suck it up and get on with the mission - you'll be forced to deal with Marines from other Chapters almost constantly during your Vigil, so get over it. If you don't play well with others, volunteer for Kill-Marine duties. If you don't work well with those of another Chapter, then you either learn how to do it, or you end your Vigil and go home. I don't imagine that the Deathwatch has the time or resources to spare on dealing with those who will just waste its time. The Deathwatch doesn't need another Astartes with a bolter and a blade to dive into the jaws of hell without a second thought, because those can be found in every Chapter. It needs those who can adapt and learn and operate on their own initiative.

Those who rise to long-term positions within the Deathwatch (Keepers and Watch Captains, for example), regardless of their original Chapter, should always be those who have effectively adapted to the multi-cultural environment of the Deathwatch. A Watch Captain from the Space Wolves will have to deal with those who adhere to the Codex, so it's in his best interest to learn at least some of Robert Girlyman's Big Book of Military Strategy, just as an Ultramarines Watch Captain has to deal with the likes of the Space Wolves and Black Templars who ignore the Codex. In all cases, you end up with a warrior who's probably quite well-versed in a range of strategies and tactics foreign to his Chapter, having learned a lot of unusual and unorthodox strategies whilst on their Vigil.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

ak-73 said:

Which explains why the Wolves don't rise to leadership positions in the Deathwatch usually.

 

 

 

We don't actually know that.

Agreed, I overstated this point but we actually do know that they tend to not rise beyond Captain: page 47.

 

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That doesn't actually matter, anyway. To a similar degree, you've got Ultramarines being placed in situations where they're required to lead those who don't adhere to the Codex as strictly or completely as they do. In pretty much every case, you've got a situation where the leader is faced with leading those whose traditions and ideals don't match their own to some degree or another, and a parallel situation where the members of the Kill-Team are following a warrior who has been chosen as their leader in spite of differences in beliefs and ideology.

That's kind of the point.

A Deathwatch Marine is expected to suck it up and get on with the mission - you'll be forced to deal with Marines from other Chapters almost constantly during your Vigil, so get over it. If you don't play well with others, volunteer for Kill-Marine duties. If you don't work well with those of another Chapter, then you either learn how to do it, or you end your Vigil and go home. I don't imagine that the Deathwatch has the time or resources to spare on dealing with those who will just waste its time. The Deathwatch doesn't need another Astartes with a bolter and a blade to dive into the jaws of hell without a second thought, because those can be found in every Chapter. It needs those who can adapt and learn and operate on their own initiative.

 

Let's put it this way: the DW needs those who are capable of both.

 

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Those who rise to long-term positions within the Deathwatch (Keepers and Watch Captains, for example), regardless of their original Chapter, should always be those who have effectively adapted to the multi-cultural environment of the Deathwatch. A Watch Captain from the Space Wolves will have to deal with those who adhere to the Codex, so it's in his best interest to learn at least some of Robert Girlyman's Big Book of Military Strategy, just as an Ultramarines Watch Captain has to deal with the likes of the Space Wolves and Black Templars who ignore the Codex. In all cases, you end up with a warrior who's probably quite well-versed in a range of strategies and tactics foreign to his Chapter, having learned a lot of unusual and unorthodox strategies whilst on their Vigil.

I don't think that Space Wolves captain tend to learn about the Codex by any other way except due to mission experience and occasional argument with codex-adherent chapter members. To me, the Space Wolves are instinct-driven and their uncanny instinct makes them intuitively adapt to the situation, including working with Codex marines and their procedures. What those need to pick up through study, the SW grasp intuitively, empirically.

There's of course no rule without exception and a book reading Space Wolf surely would be fun. gran_risa.gif

 

Alex

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I certainly agree that the idea of an elected leader works perfectly within the scope of the game. Players actively ordering others around is boorish, and elective leadership reins that in.

ak-73 said:

But that's not how 40K works. The Space Wolves are a proud chapter and have their own traditions and I don't think they are thinking all that highly of the Codex. The have an oral tradition and don't understand the written tradition. I suppose in the eyes of most Sw the other brother should just man up and have an ale.

It's how the Deathwatch works, though. Astartes are screened and selected because they have that certain something that makes them suitable. Part of that is going to be the ability to compromise. The Ultra is going to have to work outside the Codex, and the Wolf within it; the Templar will have to tolerate the Psyker, et al.

 

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I didn't say that the Space Wolves cannot get along or work along with others though. And I think there is only so much that the Deathwatch can bent a Space Marine on a relatively brief tour of duty.

 

Alex

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