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fmaker23

The Dragon expansion was great but something just didn't feel right...

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 First of all, i want to appoligize for any grammer and spelling mistakes, english is my second language


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The dragon expansion was awesome, in many ways... the game was very enjoyable, we played with all the expansions. unfortunatly it was just a 2 player game, but it still was good and highly enjoyable!

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It was good, exept for the ending...
we played like 4 hours, and at some point in the game, both of us had something like 20 sterngth points, and the dragon king only has 12... so basically it's - The first who gets to the crown of command, wins, which is no fun at all preocupado.gif

I was in the dungeon board, and in when i got to the treasure chamber at the end, I "fought" the lord of darkness, which also had a strength of 12! so after i won (there was no other way but winning), i subtracted the Lord of Darkness's attack score from my attack score, to see where i get teleported to... and guess what: I got teleported to the Crown of Command!

So to make it short: I fought the lord of darkness in the dungeon and automatically won, than i got teleported to the crown of command (in the dragon realm side) and automatically won as well.

---

"So that's it?" I thought, "After several hours of epic and fun game, i won by going to the dungeon?!"
And further more,
The lord of darkness in the dungeon had the same ammount of strength that the dragon king had?!
It just didn't feel right... I mean, why the dragon king only has 12 strength?!

•••

Beside that, i have a few questions:

1. A player dosen't need a Talisman in the dragon tower? It's not mentioned anywhere, and i think that the talisman is an important part in the game...

2. If i want to use an alternative ending, from, let's say the frostmarch expansion, i need to play with it INSTEAD of the whole dragon tower & realm board, or do i play IN ADDITION to this board (for example: alternative ending from the frostmarch expansion on top of the crown on commmand in the dragon tower board side)

3. About what i did, when i won by teleporting to the dragon realm's crown of command through the dungeon, is this aginst the rules or is it ok?
•••
Anyway, that's about it... it's a good game, but there it has holes and confusing situations.

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I don't have my Dragon expansion yet but I think I'm gonna play the Challenge for the Crown mode (Dragon rules, page 16), which means placing the Dragon Tower board next to the main game board instead of placing it over the Inner Region.

It solves most of the wrong feelings. You still need a Talisman to enter the Valley of Fire. If you defeat the Lord of Darkness, you are teleported to the Crown of Command on the main board and you are immediately moved to the Plain of Peril on the Dragon Tower. So there is still the whole Dragon Tower in front of you.

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Hi

Im using this thread instead of creating a new one because the headline fits into my topic aswell:

So we have been playing 2 games with dragon expansion and there is somethings that I feel is not very good with this expansion, Just wanted to hear the communities feelings around these things:

 

1. The turns are getting very administrative picking tokens placing them on dragon lords, spaces etc. The board gets pretty clustered. It just feels harder to get an overview of whats happening on the game field. Have any1 found a more efficent way of drawing tokens?

2. The highland and dungeon expansion starts feeling really uncessesary, in the meaning that if you start going into the highland for example you feel that you will fall behind because most of the tokens are on the main board. Previosly you went into highland or dungeon because they created a faster way to lvl up. Now it's not really necessary and you even fall behind because its so much about hunting dragon scales.

3. After a while it will be hard to even find spaces to draw regular adventure cards, because either a dragon king token is on that space or there is already a drawn dragon card on the space. It just gives the feeling that the 300+ adventure cards you will have from all the other expansions feel unnecessary.

4. The PvP actions which we had a lot of before have also gone down because it feels like you are missing out on collecting dragon scales if you waste turns to attack another player.

We will probably play with this expansion for a couple of more games and if it still feels like it creates to much administrative work and slows down the game and also removes the PvP actions which is really enjoyable then we will either do some radical rule changes or just skip it which feels like a waste as well.

So does anyone else who played the dragon feel this way or have maybe already done some adaptions?

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Persiatic, I don't own dragon yet, but I share your thoughts.

If I don't like current mechanic after several games, I will try the following instead:

- at the beginning of the game place a few (like 2 or 3) scales in each region (mainboard, highlands, dungeon). Maybe random fields, maybe fixed.

- you draw a token at the end of turn, provided a new cultist or a new dragon was drawn. This will significantly cut down maintenance task, the new cards will be used, but they will not be dominant. 

There will be a lot of details to describe (like where should the scale be placed, it can't go to character current field , so maybe roll a dice instead?), but the ground rules are shown above.

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So this is how we draw dragon tokens.  It's a more simple process, but works really well. 

 

1.  At game set-up, randomly decide which Dragon Lord is the starting Dragon King.  Stack the three Dragon Lord cards in the center of the board, with the Dragon King on top. 

 

2.  Do not draw a dragon token every turn. 

 

3.  Instead, whenever a character rolls a "6" for movement, draw a dragon token and immediately place on the square where the character is standing (or next one over if token is already present).  In addition, the Dragon Lord matching the colour of the token is immediately crowned the Dragon King (do not place tokens on Dracon Lord cards).  Re-arrange the Dragon Lord cards so that only the current Dragon King is visible.
 

4.  Once the above actions are complete, the character moves 6 spaces and continues with their turn as normal (character does not interact with new token).

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Great suggestions, I think I will try a combination of both your suggestions. To both start with some tokens already placed on the board and also only drawing new tokens when u roll a 6 or a 1 for movement. It should slow down the dragon scale placement.

I see here that my group is not the only ones that feel this way, strange that this concern never came up on the FFG player experience testing. They should at least have posted some alternative rules to slow down the dragon scale placement similar to what they have done to making it even more harder and longer game.

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The placement of dragon tokens seems no problem for me.

It's maybe 10 seconds work.

spell gaining characters such as warlock etc, also need to draw a spell card at the start of their turn. It's another task what they must do.

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Velhart said:

 

The placement of dragon tokens seems no problem for me.

It's maybe 10 seconds work.

spell gaining characters such as warlock etc, also need to draw a spell card at the start of their turn. It's another task what they must do.

It's not so much about the actual drawing of the tokens which is the problem, it's more how fast the main board starts to get populated with dragon scales which removes regual adventure card drawing either by having a dragon king scale on it or a already drawn dragon card. Also that the highland and Dungeon expansions feel very unecessary and not even motivated to go to because you actually fall behind in dragon scale hunting.

the main point I trying to say is that the whole mechanic on how the dragon scales are placed and is the foundation to how dragon cards should be drawn kills the other aspects of the game imo. I mean even the second region on the main board looses it's purpose, the whole reason u went to that region was to be able to access the draw more than 1 card spaces and temple.

You don't really need to leave the main region to draw more adventure cards and kill a whole lot of enemies and temple well that's probably the only reason to go to the second region.

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Persiatic said:

 

 

It's not so much about the actual drawing of the tokens which is the problem, it's more how fast the main board starts to get populated with dragon scales which removes regual adventure card drawing either by having a dragon king scale on it or a already drawn dragon card. Also that the highland and Dungeon expansions feel very unecessary and not even motivated to go to because you actually fall behind in dragon scale hunting.

I am not sure, if the Highland or dungeon is unecessary now.

Even in the middle of the game( around 5 or 6 strength, it still worth to go to the Highland, if the dragons show up on the mainboard.

The dragons can also show up in the highland.

I can understand the dragon scale hunting part, but not in the beginning of the game. Those dragons are very strong.

 

Persiatic said:

the main point I trying to say is that the whole mechanic on how the dragon scales are placed and is the foundation to how dragon cards should be drawn kills the other aspects of the game imo. I mean even the second region on the main board looses it's purpose, the whole reason u went to that region was to be able to access the draw more than 1 card spaces and temple.

Dragon expansion adds more difficulty to the game.

I can see that the middle region becomes more dangerous now, because it's it not a big region, and the tokens can fill that region quicker that the outer region.

 

I still want to see it for myself, if i got the expansion. happy.gif

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NO, YOU ARE NOT ALONE. i BOUGHT THE DRAGON EXPANSION YESTERDAY, AND WE PLAYED IT TODAY... ITS ALL ABOUT THE TOKENS NOW, AND WE NEVER ENTERED THE DOUNGEN OR THE HIGHLAND AT ALL, NEVER DID WE DO ANY PVP OR CASTEDA SPELL!!!

So im a little dissapointed, and had hoping for a city expansion or a forest expansion insted :(

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Wow!

 

I was reading through the rules this week and I had that very same reaction.  SOMETHING didn't feel right to me.  I just could not believe how many scales and cards would cover the board.  Although I have often thought that there needed to be more monsters, I did not like how the scales mechanism would slow down the game.  Meh...  I was not impressed by the reading through the rules.  Perhaps I need to play through the game a few times before I begin to like them.

 

El Diablito

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Hi

just played a 4 man session, where we changed the rules to only draw tokens when you roll a 1 or a 6 for movement and it balanced out the game perfectly, you still get a lot of dragon scales to encounter but doesn't overwhelm the core of the game.

So if you like me and my friends think that the regular dragon expansion rules overwhelm all other parts of the game and it basically just becomes a hunt for scales then try playing with these rules.

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 I love the Dragon Expansion.

And it seems that I love it for many of the reasons some of you guys don't.  I love how it changes things up.  We still go to the Highlands, we still go to the Dungeon, we still cast spells and encounter spaces in all regions.  We do seem to have characters killed off and have to come in with new ones.  But here's the deal--that makes things exciting!  

 

Great job FF!  Keep the expansions coming!

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illygraham said:

 I love the Dragon Expansion.

And it seems that I love it for many of the reasons some of you guys don't.  I love how it changes things up.  We still go to the Highlands, we still go to the Dungeon, we still cast spells and encounter spaces in all regions.  We do seem to have characters killed off and have to come in with new ones.  But here's the deal--that makes things exciting!  

 

Great job FF!  Keep the expansions coming!

I am glad that you like the expansion.gran_risa.gif

I am still waiting for my copy..

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fmaker23 said:

---

It was good, exept for the ending...
we played like 4 hours, and at some point in the game, both of us had something like 20 sterngth points, and the dragon king only has 12... so basically it's - The first who gets to the crown of command, wins, which is no fun at all preocupado.gif

I was in the dungeon board, and in when i got to the treasure chamber at the end, I "fought" the lord of darkness, which also had a strength of 12! so after i won (there was no other way but winning), i subtracted the Lord of Darkness's attack score from my attack score, to see where i get teleported to... and guess what: I got teleported to the Crown of Command!

So to make it short: I fought the lord of darkness in the dungeon and automatically won, than i got teleported to the crown of command (in the dragon realm side) and automatically won as well.

---

"So that's it?" I thought, "After several hours of epic and fun game, i won by going to the dungeon?!"
And further more,
The lord of darkness in the dungeon had the same ammount of strength that the dragon king had?!
It just didn't feel right... I mean, why the dragon king only has 12 strength?!

 

I also hate this problem with the dungeon expansion.

The dungeon destroys the adventure of the game. Most of the time, you only encounter enemies there.

 This way, you level up quickly, and there is a big chance to take the backdoor, to skip the whole inner region.

It has also happen in our games, when the Ice queen was the ending of the game. When a character was teleported from the dungeon to the crown, he could defeat the Ice queen easily. That's not epic indeed.

I am still wondering how strong you need to be to enter the dragon tower. If you go in with 9 strength, maybe that you can level up while going upstairs to confront the dragon king.

Anyway, the space of the lord of darkness, should read, that you are teleported to the portal of power, but they changed the spacesad.gif

And the lord of darkness should never be so strong, but the whole dungeon has increased with many strong enemies, so they increase also the statistics of the LOD.

_____________

It's good to hear that it was a epic and fun game.

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I play with a group where we always have 6+ people playing. We decided before we even played the first game to increase the number of tokens needed to crown a new Dragon King. We increased the number to 5 on our first game and that seemed to be a nice number. The game play was changed a bit but still felt like the pre-expansion gameplay.

I do agree that if you use the tower side only, there is no use for a Talisman now and that does not feel right at all. In our next game we use the alternate rule of the tower being after the Valley of Fire. Perhaps even boosting the Dragon King stats in Str and Craft a bit too as I agree that 12 or 14 in the high stat feels a bit low for the end boss.

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 I've slowlu managed to get a few friends interested in Talisman and of course more cards and areas to explorer are great but I always refrain from complicating the game. Dungeon and Highlands great as are the expansions (Though I don't play the Reaper). Dragons is a nice way to fresh the game up but I play an alternative game to keep it easy and this is popular for the non gamers who like to dabble (and obviously I like more players so don't want to put them off)

 

In addition to the usual rule (every time someone gains a bag of gold it's two fingers of drink ;-) Dragons middle added on the decorative side. The 3 dragon decks are mixed into an alternative adventure card deck. The 3 dragons are put on the CoC to be drawn when someone gets there. Whoever defeats the dragon still then has to finsh everyone else off with command spells.

If a player rolls a 6 or double for movement then, whatever expansion they're in they draw from the dragon deck like an ordinary adventure card. No tokens. Nope. But if the player loses to a dragon that's bad. Why? Because the dice is rolled again. Roll a 5 or 6 and one strength token is added to the dragon boss on the CoC. This strength token counts as a dragon scale fro the purposes of completing the middle level.

The end level boss has 5 lives and must be fought and beaten in one go or else the loser loses 1 life, faces the dragon wrath and then is thrown back to the portal of power for their troubles, minus their Talisman. If the Dragon loses lives (is wounded) it stays as-is to be an incentive for other sneaky players to go up and finish the job. Also We have no teleport to the CoC. Furthest anyone goes is the Portal of Power.

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 Another way to play it would be to mix the Dragon cards up and make them the Adventure card deck for the second (middle, with desert and oasis) region, making the second region tougher than the outer region. Turn the middle into dragon land! Same rule that losing combat to a Dragon increases the Dragon lord's power would apply.

 

I'm going to suggest both ways and see what the other players reckon.

 

If I was doing another expansion I'd release a different middle region with its own Adventure Card deck. Or maybe a cheap small box expansion with cards for that purpose. It just feels like the missle should be tougher than outer and at the moment Dragons Decks fill in nicely.

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Well, I've haven't been here since I purchased my copy and thought I'd catch up on what other people were thinking.  I've only played Talisman twice now with the Dragon Expansion, all of the small expansions and without using the Dungeon or Highland.  I thought it was great, but I understand the complaints as well.  Then I started to think about the general house rules we use that alter the basic mechanic of the game, which are:  Always draw the amount of cards that the space tells you to draw, no matter how many cards are already in that space.  Is this small change making something better than I realize here?  Do I like the Dragons Expansion because of the way my brain works?  Talisman is great because the rules can be so easily bent without changing the game entirely.  That's it, that's the answer, it's that easy.  In fact, next game, I'm going to ask if everyone wants to try a fight to the death rule.  What I mean is, attack and defend like normal, roll for your armour if you loose your initial die roll and attack again if no one dies.  Sure there are some things that will be questioned, but it will get worked out I'm sure.

I love the game.  I'm looking foreward to the next gathering of friends for a few hours of forgeting about all the crazy things that could and do happen out on the other side of my front door by just focusing on rolling some dice and having a few laughs along the way!  Cheers!

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About not needing a Talisman to win with Dragon Tower, all you need to fix that is use a rule that’s actually in the rulebook.

 

Page 16 = Challenge for the Crown.

Summarized = Instead of an overlay, put the tower on a side table, and use both the classic and tower inner region.  Move from the CoC space on classic to the Plain of Peril space on the Tower.  Ergo, you still need a Talisman.

Done.

To make it even longer, we use the following Home Rules.

We use all three Inner Regions.  It goes like this…

1-Enter the portal of power in the Classic Inner Region.
2-Make your way what used to be the Crown of Command square.
3-Put the Dragon Realm overlay and move your character to the first square on the new side.
4-Bump any characters behind you to outside the Portal of Power.
5-Make your way again to the centre square.
6-Flip the overlay to the Dragon Tower overlay and move your character to the first square on the new side.
7-Bump any characters behind you to outside the Portal of Power.
8- Make your way again to the centre square.
9-Fight the current Crowned Dragon.

NOTE that the first person has to go through basically THREE Inner Regions, but those catching up only have to do the current one.  And, being bumped isn’t that bad because you go from being 1-5 squares behind the leader to being neck and neck, assuming you pass through the PoP again.

Finally, as for the Lord of Darkness and the Dungeon, we ruled that you only go to the CoC square of the CURRENT inner Region.  i.e. if there is no-one in the inner region, you still have two Inner Regions to pass.

Even if you ignore all the Home Rules, by using the printed “Challenge for the Crown” alternate that’s in the Dragon Rules, you can easily make the case that the LoD only ports you to the Inner Region CoC square and not the Dragon Tower CoC square.  (Rule lawyers would have a field day with the “WHAT is a CoC square anyways?” with all the new Inner Region options)
 

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I actually felt JUST RIIIGHT after I played the Dragon expansion.  Also, the fact that I won might have something to do with it feeling just right.  I can't explain it really, but it just feels like when I win, thats how its supposed to be.  WINNING!!  gran_risa.gif

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Regulator18 said:

 

I actually felt JUST RIIIGHT after I played the Dragon expansion.  Also, the fact that I won might have something to do with it feeling just right.  I can't explain it really, but it just feels like when I win, thats how its supposed to be.  WINNING!!  gran_risa.gif

 

 

Have you also use the other expansions in this game. the 2 regions etc.

How did that play?

And have you use the dragon tower board?

 

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We have just finished one game. playing only with Sacred Pool, Reaper and Dragons. No other expansions.

Token placement was kind of ok to us (altough everybody forget about it sometimes). What worries me more are:

- empowered characters. When I compare its str with "regular" one, they are incredibly strenght. Dragon Hunter is able to kill Dragons from first round (Deathblow rulez), Conjurer could sometimes achieve eternal turn (Druid Staff together with Madcap Adventure Card on the Board), Fire wizard is much stronger than regular wizard etc...

Do not tried Priest and Rider. Anybody else sharing these feelings ?

- perhaps too much Dragon Scales on the Board. Altough it was pretty random, that every space has different scale, and due to the Dragon King rule you have to face only one of them, it was ok. Still, it was kind of "boring" to discarding tokens from Dragon King when he achieve 3 tokens and moving crown from one to another. What I suggested is to Dragon become Dragon King, at least 4 tokens to be placed on Dragon card.

 

Besides this I like the Exapnsion, not jsut because of lots of new Dragon Cards, but also itdefinitely makes game longer and more difficult to finihs, so players are now roaming trough outer and middle region much more. YOu do not have chance go to the portal with Str 9 like before.

 

And of course due to differnet exapnsion and different alternative endings, everybody could make game to fit for the group.

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I had my first taste of the Dragon expansion yesterday. My friend already has it and we wanted to give it a proper test to see if it was worth picking up for myself.

Unfortunately I would say it isn't, and I would go further and say it is probably the worst expansion to date. Of course, this is just my opinion and I am sure others will disagree!

Our main problems were:

- it made turns even longer. There were only two of us and it took over 3 hours to finish the game. A problem I always have when playing Talisman with my gaming groups is that the players get bored. This expansion doesn't help this, and the two of us (hardened gamers) were really getting fed up by the time we finished.

- it adds more complexity, but doesn't really add that much in return. Again this slows the game down. Talisman doesn't need more mechanical complexity, it just needs more, simple, strategic options for the players, and it needs to be kept fun. The Dragon King mechanics just felt like an annoyance more than anything else.

- it adds more randomness. Talisman is known for its randomness, but we feel a good game needs a mix of strategy and randomness. The dragon expansion injects more randomness but little strategy and when combined with all the other expansions is starting to make Talisman feel a little ridiculous. Randomly drawing scales, the way the dragon king changes every few turns, etc, etc. It's got to the point where you might as well just roll a die and declare whoever has rolls the highest is the winner of the game.

After the game we did a postmorten to try and work out what was wrong, and our conclusion was that Talisman seems to be heading down the same road as Arkham Horror - each expansion adding more complexity, but at the same time making it less fun for your once in a while board gamer. With simplicity in mind, we took this further and wondered if perhaps the best solution was to just use the main board on its own (but with all the characters, spells, adventures cards, etc from the expansions). Certainly we felt that just using all the expansions as is, resulted in a game that was just too long and complex.

We also felt that future expansions needed to bring more strategy or story into the game. I remember the Frostmarch expansion was marketed as the Ice Queen 'transforming the realm into a desolate, frozen wasteland' - when in reality it was just the injection of some new adventure cards. Why can't there be a time line track that can be used to make the game evolve (so in this case as the game progresses the board becomes more and more wintery themed, and if the time line reaches the end the Queen wins)? Something like this would help to add a bit of story to a game, rather than it just being endless dice rolling and drawing of cards (and now drawing of scales).

Apologies that this has been quite harsh, but we grew up with the old 2nd edition of Talisman and always had great fun playing it (and wanted to keep playing it), and we are just frustrated that we don't get this same feeling with the new edition.

That being said, I am a completist and will buy Dragon at some point - it has just been knocked off my Christmas list now...

 

 

 

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Walks said:

I had my first taste of the Dragon expansion yesterday. My friend already has it and we wanted to give it a proper test to see if it was worth picking up for myself.

Unfortunately I would say it isn't, and I would go further and say it is probably the worst expansion to date. Of course, this is just my opinion and I am sure others will disagree!

Our main problems were:

- it made turns even longer. There were only two of us and it took over 3 hours to finish the game. A problem I always have when playing Talisman with my gaming groups is that the players get bored. This expansion doesn't help this, and the two of us (hardened gamers) were really getting fed up by the time we finished.

- it adds more complexity, but doesn't really add that much in return. Again this slows the game down. Talisman doesn't need more mechanical complexity, it just needs more, simple, strategic options for the players, and it needs to be kept fun. The Dragon King mechanics just felt like an annoyance more than anything else.

- it adds more randomness. Talisman is known for its randomness, but we feel a good game needs a mix of strategy and randomness. The dragon expansion injects more randomness but little strategy and when combined with all the other expansions is starting to make Talisman feel a little ridiculous. Randomly drawing scales, the way the dragon king changes every few turns, etc, etc. It's got to the point where you might as well just roll a die and declare whoever has rolls the highest is the winner of the game.

After the game we did a postmorten to try and work out what was wrong, and our conclusion was that Talisman seems to be heading down the same road as Arkham Horror - each expansion adding more complexity, but at the same time making it less fun for your once in a while board gamer. With simplicity in mind, we took this further and wondered if perhaps the best solution was to just use the main board on its own (but with all the characters, spells, adventures cards, etc from the expansions). Certainly we felt that just using all the expansions as is, resulted in a game that was just too long and complex.

We also felt that future expansions needed to bring more strategy or story into the game. I remember the Frostmarch expansion was marketed as the Ice Queen 'transforming the realm into a desolate, frozen wasteland' - when in reality it was just the injection of some new adventure cards. Why can't there be a time line track that can be used to make the game evolve (so in this case as the game progresses the board becomes more and more wintery themed, and if the time line reaches the end the Queen wins)? Something like this would help to add a bit of story to a game, rather than it just being endless dice rolling and drawing of cards (and now drawing of scales).

Apologies that this has been quite harsh, but we grew up with the old 2nd edition of Talisman and always had great fun playing it (and wanted to keep playing it), and we are just frustrated that we don't get this same feeling with the new edition.

That being said, I am a completist and will buy Dragon at some point - it has just been knocked off my Christmas list now...

Yeah I don't think your being harsh, I have played a few games with the Dragons set now and it does make the game longer "geee even longer to a already long game" You have to play with Bloodbath seriously to cut it down. Its the character restarts that makes the game go so long..

I think the sleep tokens should of been that the player CAN place one on any enemy (not just dragons) in their region if not then thay can place it on any region.. Spending time looking around not only for dragns but non sleeping ones hehehe takes time.. Then  you always have the "Oh THERES ONE" five mins after :)..

I think some of the new dragon cards are OTT to say the least. But I suppose if you play with the big boys.

I find that anygame that has had mutipule exspansions will get more time comsuming and more complex.

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