Cancelling triggered effects

[lalchant 0]

I had a few questions regarding triggered effects, specifically Horseback Archers and Khal Drogo. Once the triggered effect is cancelled, do these cards remain in my opponent's hand or are they discarded? I was pretty sure that once it was cancelled they would be discarded but my meta-mate says otherwise. We would really appreciate if someone could clarify this for us.

K-town to the rescue please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks in advance for all your super helpful responses.

[Ratatoskr 34]

lalchant said:

 

I had a few questions regarding triggered effects, specifically Horseback Archers and Khal Drogo. Once the triggered effect is cancelled, do these cards remain in my opponent's hand or are they discarded? I was pretty sure that once it was cancelled they would be discarded but my meta-mate says otherwise. We would really appreciate if someone could clarify this for us.

K-town to the rescue please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks in advance for all your super helpful responses.

 

 

With both the Horseback Archers and Khal Drogo, them coming into play is part of their effect. If the effect is cancelled, they technically don't even leave your hand.

Note that this is different from how events are handled. With events, them being played from hand is part of the initiation, not part of the effect. When events are played from hand, they automatically enter a Moribund:Discard Pile state, and this is where they go, whether they are discarded or not.

Maybe this difference between Events and Drogo/the Archers is what threw you.

I hope this is all correct, or ktom will have my head...

 

EDITED

[Saturnine 47]

Ratatoskr said:

I hope this is all correct, or ktom will have my head...

Or k-town!

[-Istaril 157]

I think you're correct in that cancelling them results in them staying in your hand (because it's not part of the initiation, but is the effect) - your logic seems sound.

What's tricky is whether you can then use Drogo again, responding to the same trigger, since the card is still in your hand (this was touched on breifly yesterday here: http://www.agotcards.org/card/v/837). I see the arguments in that discussion and the reasoning behind them, but I'm not sure I see the support for this in the rules themselves...

 

[Ratatoskr 34]

-Istaril said:

I think you're correct in that cancelling them results in them staying in your hand (because it's not part of the initiation, but is the effect) - your logic seems sound.

What's tricky is whether you can then use Drogo again, responding to the same trigger, since the card is still in your hand (this was touched on breifly yesterday here: http://www.agotcards.org/card/v/837). I see the arguments in that discussion and the reasoning behind them, but I'm not sure I see the support for this in the rules themselves...

 

The Search feature is your friend!

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=547224&efpag=0#547422

[ktom 598]

-Istaril said:

What's tricky is whether you can then use Drogo again, responding to the same trigger, since the card is still in your hand (this was touched on breifly yesterday here: http://www.agotcards.org/card/v/837). I see the arguments in that discussion and the reasoning behind them, but I'm not sure I see the support for this in the rules themselves..

Without looking at the discussion, I can tell you that the Response of Khal Drogo could be used again in Response to the same challenge. You can explain it in two ways (you pick):

1. Every card out of play is considered a separate, distinct card when you try to use it, even if it is possible to verify that it is the same piece of cardboard in practical terms. (Sometimes it obviously is the same physical card, sometimes it is not, and sometimes, you can't be sure - so the blanket ruling is "always assume not.")

2. The "one Response per trigger" rule only applies to cards that are triggered from play. Since the rule talks in terms of "response or passive abilities," there is actually support for this interpretation in the FAQ because "abilities" are, by definition, only on cards that are in play. (They're called "effects" if the card is not in play.)

[db123456 0]

ktom said:

-Istaril said:

What's tricky is whether you can then use Drogo again, responding to the same trigger, since the card is still in your hand (this was touched on breifly yesterday here: http://www.agotcards.org/card/v/837). I see the arguments in that discussion and the reasoning behind them, but I'm not sure I see the support for this in the rules themselves..

Without looking at the discussion, I can tell you that the Response of Khal Drogo could be used again in Response to the same challenge. You can explain it in two ways (you pick):

 

1. Every card out of play is considered a separate, distinct card when you try to use it, even if it is possible to verify that it is the same piece of cardboard in practical terms. (Sometimes it obviously is the same physical card, sometimes it is not, and sometimes, you can't be sure - so the blanket ruling is "always assume not.")

2. The "one Response per trigger" rule only applies to cards that are triggered from play. Since the rule talks in terms of "response or passive abilities," there is actually support for this interpretation in the FAQ because "abilities" are, by definition, only on cards that are in play. (They're called "effects" if the card is not in play.)

how about endless endurance in the discard pile in this case?

[ktom 598]

db123456 said:

ktom said:

 

2. The "one Response per trigger" rule only applies to cards that are triggered from play. Since the rule talks in terms of "response or passive abilities," there is actually support for this interpretation in the FAQ because "abilities" are, by definition, only on cards that are in play. (They're called "effects" if the card is not in play.)

 

 

how about endless endurance in the discard pile in this case?

The discard pile is not "in play," so you are not triggering the Response effect from "in play" when it is in the discard pile.

[db123456 0]

 so cancel it is useless?

[Khudzlin 734]

No, cancelling it means it goes to the discard pile rather than the dead pile (deathbound is part of the effect). As you can only take it back from the dead pile, cancelling Endless Endurance is anything but useless.

[ktom 598]

Khudzlin said:

No, cancelling it means it goes to the discard pile rather than the dead pile (deathbound is part of the effect). As you can only take it back from the dead pile, cancelling Endless Endurance is anything but useless.

You're thinking of Forever Burning.

Endless Endurance is not Deathbound. It's "return to hand" effect is a Response, triggered from the discard pile, to winning a MIL challenge by 4 or more STR. If that Response is canceled, the card stays in the discard pile - where it can just be triggered again in Response to the same MIL challenge because the "one response per trigger" rule only applies to card abilities, ie, card text that initiates while the card is in play. 

Whether or not canceling it is "useless" is going to depend on what your goal is with the cancel. If your goal is to stop the Stark player from moving the event from his discard pile to his hand, yeah, canceling it is going to be useless. But if your primary goal is to stand a GJ character, canceling it with To Be a Kraken is not going to be useless at all.

[berto 0]

Sorry for refrehing this subject but just want to be sure. So if card is in play we can use response only once per trigger. For example Oberyn's Guile.

If my response after challange lost was cancelled I can't trigger it again. However for cards out of play (shadow, deck, discard, hand, dead) I can activate response how many times I want.

[ktom 598]

berto said:

If my response after challange lost was cancelled I can't trigger it again. However for cards out of play (shadow, deck, discard, hand, dead) I can activate response how many times I want.

Yes, although most Responses on cards out of play are not set up to be infinite (because they usually end up being put into play by that Response). The classic example, though, is that it is near pointless to cancel CS-Khal Drogo's Response because canceling it leaves him in your hand, where he can just be triggered again.

[berto 0]

I assume that in the same way ambush will work. In this case however cancel can be usefull as at the end I can have no more influence for second ambush. But assuming that I have enough influence I can trigger ambush again and again after it was cancelled, right:?
 

[Mathias Fricot 0]

thread hijack in progress

 

So triggered abilities are on cards in play (such as... The Blackfish) whereas triggered effects are on cards out of play (such as... Distraction).

Does this mean To Be A Kraken (blah blah blah to cancel a triggered effect) cannot cancel the Blackfish's Response (drawing a card) because it specifically cancels a triggered effect, not a triggered ability?

[ktom 598]

Ambush is a keyword. Keywords cannot be canceled (see FAQ p. 11).

[Mathias Fricot 0]

That has to be wrong, otherwise River Blockade would do nothing. I am now confused.

[berto 0]

Response is as well trigerred ability as far as I know.

[Bomb 66]

All triggered abilities are triggered effects, but not all triggered effects are triggered abilities.  It's like all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.

[Mathias Fricot 0]

So, in summmary:

Anything that cancels a triggered effect can cancel a character's "response:" or "any phase:" ability, if its in play or being triggered from out of play.
Anything that cancels a character ability can cancel a character's "response:" or "any phase:" ability if it is in play, but not If it is being triggered from out of play (LoW Catelyn/CS Drogo) because at the point of initiation it is not a character ability, but is a triggered effect.
 

[Saturnine 47]

Mathias Fricot said:

Anything that cancels a triggered effect can cancel a character's "response:" or "any phase:" ability, if its in play or being triggered from out of play.

 

Addendum: Doesn't need to be a character card.