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unclejo

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As Julia said, there is nothing saying a doom token is not added when you use Naacal Key.

As for the phase issue: the rules say when a gate opens ON you, you're immediately drawn in and delayed. If you assume this occurs with the Naacal Key, then you won't enter on the Arkham encounters phase: you'll enter immediately when you use the Key and will be delayed. But, as I've said, this renders the key so horrible, that I don't play that you're delayed on the grounds of theme, in the same way that I argue that a Nightgaunt doesn't cause you to be delayed when it throws you through a gate.

Unclejo: I don't think Gate Box is extremely great. It's about worth the $4 list price.

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Tibs said:

As Julia said, there is nothing saying a doom token is not added when you use Naacal Key.

As there is nothing saying a doom token is added everytime gate opens, not just those times it opened by a effect of mythos card.

 

Julia said:


Well, the object is from the Black Goat expansion. If you see it thematically, the expansion gives you the instrument to be a cultist working for the AO. You have spells for summoning monsters, gates, moving monsters from here to there and some other more or less nasty stuff. Thus summoning a gate thematically is something boosting the AO's arrival.

If you don't like the thematical explanation, simply consider that there is nowhere presented (rulebooks, FAQs, collective conscience of mankind) a case when a gate is opened without a doom track to be added!

The expansion actually gives you the instrument to infiltrate the cult which is working for the AO and use it means for your own purpose, because there is no condiotion of your win by working for the AO other than Joining the Winning team and Joining the Naryalathopet during final battle, both are not connected with the cult activity. You summon monster when you in need of monster trophy, you move them because you need to a free passage or something else, you awaken ancient one because you want an upper hand against him, all those cult stuff - you use it in your advantage. With great risk and great sacrifices ofcourse, but still you doing it for the greater good.

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MyNeighbourTrololo said:

The expansion actually gives you the instrument to infiltrate the cult which is working for the AO and use it means for your own purpose, because there is no condiotion of your win by working for the AO other than Joining the Winning team and Joining the Naryalathopet during final battle, both are not connected with the cult activity. You summon monster when you in need of monster trophy, you move them because you need to a free passage or something else, you awaken ancient one because you want an upper hand against him, all those cult stuff - you use it in your advantage. With great risk and great sacrifices ofcourse, but still you doing it for the greater good.

 

Then you can easily use Naacal Key to have a gate in a low frequency location, free from gate bursts or a helpful closure in an Atlach game with just one seal missing. There are ways it can be used to your advantage, even if not many. Besides, the gate you open with the Naacal key counts against the gate limit, if taken as a trophy can be spended in the usual ways, it counts against the number of trophies you have to have in order to achieve a closing victory and if sealed, its seal counts against the 6 you have to put on the board for a sealing victory, so I don't see why it shouldn't be considered a "normal gate opening" for the purposes of doom track addition or monster spawning!

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Julia said:

If you don't like the thematical explanation, simply consider that there is nowhere presented (rulebooks, FAQs, collective conscience of mankind) a case when a gate is opened without a doom track to be added!

not that it's really relevant for the earlier question.. but i just wanted to add;

gate burst.

that's all. ;)

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Tibs said:

I don't think Gate Box is extremely great. It's about worth the $4 list price.

 

Well, I tend to have terrible luck when it comes to OW encounters so it's nice to know that I can have a jolly stroll in the Dreamlands then pop out and close Ry'leh.

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Gah, the forums ate my post.  Well, here it is again:

MyNeighbourTrololo: For a while, I thought that you only added Doom tokens for gates that opened during the Mythos phase.  Then I learned that youa dd them for gates that open because of encounters.  The encounters don't say anything about Doom tokens, they just say "A gate and a monster appear!"  I'd say that's a fairly fitting precedent.

Incidentally, Naacal Key and its ilk (i.e. other terrible Unique Tomes, i.e. Massa di Requiem per Shuggay) are one of the reasons why the price distribution for Miskatonic U's Restricted Section ability is completely ridiculous.  Imagine spending two gate trophies and pulling a Naacal Key.  The other reason is that Common Tomes are just generally better.  Sure, there are a few really good Unique Tomes, but all of the Common Tomes are good, so you have a much better chance of getting something useful.  Compare Ancient Tome and Nameless Cults and tell me the latter is worth one gate trophy more than the former.

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Julia said:

Then you can easily use Naacal Key to have a gate in a low frequency location, free from gate bursts or a helpful closure in an Atlach game with just one seal missing. There are ways it can be used to your advantage, even if not many. Besides, the gate you open with the Naacal key counts against the gate limit, if taken as a trophy can be spended in the usual ways, it counts against the number of trophies you have to have in order to achieve a closing victory and if sealed, its seal counts against the 6 you have to put on the board for a sealing victory, so I don't see why it shouldn't be considered a "normal gate opening" for the purposes of doom track addition or monster spawning!
It's still action of fellow investigator, done for a good purpose so no doom in that.

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Tibs said:

 

Unclejo: I don't think Gate Box is extremely great. It's about worth the $4 list price.

 

 

Maybe not extremely great, but I'll usually buy it when it comes up.  First of all, $4 saves money compared to most unique item purchases.  Weapons are usually plentiful, so it's not a big deal missing one of them.  Pretty much the only things in the unique item deck I'd prefer to a gate box would be multiple clue generating stuff and elder signs.  There are occasional exceptions, but generally I love getting gate box.  I also find it useful as a speed boosting item.  (You can give it to a slow investigator as a way to get across the board faster, by jumping in one gate and getting out another, it also saves a dollar every time you use it to go to another town).

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MyNeighbourTrololo said:

It's still action of fellow investigator, done for a good purpose so no doom in that.

 

I don't see any rules evidence or logic for this to happen, but obviously, feel free to play the way you think it's more fun for you!

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MyNeighbourTrololo said:


Neither do I about your way of ruling this.


 



Sorry dude, I really don't get the point. Is it a linguistical issue? I think everybody here said very clearly why the doomer has to be added. If the doom token is not to be added, then it should be specified on the card, as it happens in the case of gate bursts (thanks Taurmindo). In all cases, in the Arkham Horror board game whenever a gate appears you add a doomer. It's clearly stated in the rules of the core game for gates appearing through Mythos, and then it's specified in the FAQ from Dunwich for the "a gate and a monster appear" Encounter cards. The only exception to this are gate bursts, but it's also clearly written that you don't have to add the doomer (and it's rather logical since it something bad enough to deal with, expecially in certain games). So, if this is the case of the Naacal Key, it should have been written somewhere.


Now, I can accept that you say you play differently. But I cannot accept you say there is no logic in what was said to you.


Besides, my grasp of the rules may be not so complete as I hope it is, but Tibs said the very same thing. If you don't trust me, trust him, considering he *is* Arkham and understands it in the way none here is able to (apart from Avi, who seems not to participate in rules debates very much lately, and Brian, who's not writing much often here too). And the work he did for the FAQ and for our community through the years is huge and precious.


If you don't trust any of us, nevermind, but please, offer the community some good arguments to support your thesis instead of saying "it's in favour of the investigator, so no doom to be added", which relies on nothing, no rules, no similar experiences with similar ruling, no common "playing" sense (with "playing" sense I mean opinions of people who played at least 100 games. And the general "playing" sense created a golden rule called "the Arkham razor" which certainly will lead us to a new doomer to be added anyway).

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Julia said:

 

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

 

Besides, my grasp of the rules may be not so complete as I hope it is, but Tibs said the very same thing. If you don't trust me, trust him, considering he *is* Arkham and understands it in the way none here is able to (apart from Avi, who seems not to participate in rules debates very much lately, and Brian, who's not writing much often here too). And the work he did for the FAQ and for our community through the years is huge and precious.

 



Welllll, I actually never participated in rules debates much.  Never really enjoyed it.  And now there's even less need than ever since there's usually someone who has answered a rules question (correctly) before I even read it.  Obviously, this question is not one I can answer due to NDA.  (Actually, it's been so long since I read the the proto-FAQ I don't even remember what it says mostly, or if this even came up in the FAQ).  Personally, I'd like the Key to not add a doom token (that way it wouldn't suck so much), but I'd assume that it follows the pattern of gate openings causing doom tokens to appear.  The general ruling is that when a gate opens, a doom token appears.  I don't see why you'd assume otherwise unless specifically stated by FFG (even though I'd be quite happy if it were ruled otherwise).  Of course...  No one will stop you from playing it however you'd like in the absence of an official clarification.

...  I also think the item's very overpriced if it's as negative as I think it is (adding a doom token), buuut, there are plenty of other cards I hate and would have designed very differently, had I my say ;') (Lurker, Black Goat, CALL ANCIENT ONE).

 

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Some effects say you may close a gate and take it as a trophy. Some just say you should close the gate(so you don't take a trophy, but technically closing a gate meaning taking a trophy like if you say appearing gate meaning a doom token). 

My argument is Key doesn't instructs you to add a doom token.

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Our argument is that that stipulation is assumed, and not required.

For example: Akachi Onyele's ability says she can seal a gate even when another effect forbids it. Well, she's forbidden by the game's fundamental rules from declaring at any time, "I seal this gate!" and just seal it. She still has to go to the gate, enter it, explore it, pass the closing check, and spend clues. These things don't have to be expressly forbidden as an exception: they're baseline rules.

Certainly the base game has had problems with redundancy in their wording, but up to this point all opening gates, by example, result in doom tokens and monsters. Gate Bursts and Daoloth's ability have to clarify that certain gate openings DO NOT result in a doom token, but if this was always assumed to be the case, then instead each instance of an opening gate would have to be accompanied by the phrase "and add a doom token."

If it's ruled that the Key does not add a doom token, then that's great: it'll make a crappy item definitively less crappy. But it will have not been an obvious conclusion.

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unclejo said:

Leo Anderson:  my character sheet says once per game, the wiki says once per turn.  Which is correct?

The wiki is correct. IIRC, this was an error happened during a reprint. My Leo says once per turn.

Once per game should be too weak for the only ability Leo has!

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unclejo,

     You've must have recently picked-up that expansion ~ it's actually once per turn.  The newest reprint has incorrectly changed the special ability to reflect once per game.  You may want to contact customer support.  While I've not had the need to contact them, countless individuals on this forum have had a very positive reception.  I they can assist (by providing you with an accurately printed card), they'll do so.

The Professor

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I am with Julia on the original question. Just to add fuel to the fire though, I believe the community tendency is to vote against the investigators' benefit for imponderables. Which I believe for this one doesn't qualify as an imponderable. Nonetheless, it is against the investigators's benefit as you put the question: doomers and monsters as it can be deciphered from the rulebooks. Although, if you use it then you have found cause to use to it. Hopefully, with results of defeating the GOO.

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Some effects say you may close a gate and take it as a trophy. Some just say you should close the gate(so you don't take a trophy, but technically closing a gate meaning taking a trophy like if you say appearing gate meaning a doom token). 

My argument is Key doesn't instructs you to add a doom token.

 

Actually, I'm inclined to say you DO take the trophy when closing a gate, whether it says so or not.  For exactly this reason.

Unless there's a FAQ ruling that contradicts me?  This sounds like a perfect argument in support of your opponents' position.

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We've always played that closes done through a game effect or encounter cannot be taken as trophies since they weren't closed in the normal way.  But I don't think I've read a ruling that says one way or another, that's just how we interpreted it - looking back at the rules it seems you could go either way.  the key phrase might be "when an investigator..." A game effect is not an investigator causing the gate to close:

 

When an investigator successfully closes a gate, they take the gate marker as a trophy and keep it with the rest of their tokens, cards, and other items. Gate trophies can be traded at certain locations in exchange for special items or events. For example - the Science Building allows investigators to exchange gate trophies for clue tokens.

Edited by Wolfpack48

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It's in the FAQ (just checked), pag 3:

 

Encounters that Close Gates
Some encounters or other card effects state that a gate closes or that the investigator may close a gate if they wish. In such cases, the gate marker is not taken as a trophy, but is instead placed on the bottom of the gate marker stack. This gate cannot be sealed, even if the current player has an Elder Sign, sufficient Clue tokens to seal it, or both.

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Holy necro-posting Steve! But yes, we got a few FAQ entries detailing the different cases. If you need, I'll dig up the answers

 

For the record, I didn't necropost this.  When the Great Cthulhu comes to devour us all, let it be known that I did not do it!

I was merely Great Old One-adjacent.

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