Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
kongnico

"Combatey" Apothecary

Recommended Posts

Gokerz said:

Yes, go tell them man!

How dare they derive enjoyment from games in a way different from yours!



That's not really what he was getting at, and I think you know that.

BYE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mooape said:

So, to summarize: in order to make your apothecary more combat-awesome - have him wield a weapon.

Man I so agree.  I'm coming from Dark Heresy and looking at the starting abilities common to all space marines they are all combat monsters.  I've confirmed this by making a R1 Apothcary using Memetix's awesome spreadsheet.  There are no mook space marines, just varying degrees of awesomeness.

Give him a big sticky or shooty, like say, a power axe or a bolter, and he'll do just fine.  Heck, get a storm bolter.  Go on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zakalwe said:

Mooape said:

 

So, to summarize: in order to make your apothecary more combat-awesome - have him wield a weapon.

 

 

Man I so agree.  I'm coming from Dark Heresy and looking at the starting abilities common to all space marines they are all combat monsters.  I've confirmed this by making a R1 Apothcary using Memetix's awesome spreadsheet.  There are no mook space marines, just varying degrees of awesomeness.

Give him a big sticky or shooty, like say, a power axe or a bolter, and he'll do just fine.  Heck, get a storm bolter.  Go on.

 

Sadly this is untrue because it's all relative. A Rank 4 Assault Marine can handle a Tyranid Warrior all by himself. A Rank 4 Dev has a chance if he can shoot him first with his Heavy Bolter. If he got DW suspensors and can survive a single round of attacks, he can try to step back and shoot him point-blank too. A Tech marine at least has his defenses and an additional Servo-arm attack. A Librarian can try to smite/force weapon the critter (yes, shadows of the warp, you better push it). A Rank 4 Apothecary is in deeper trouble. Give him a Power Axe and a Storm Bolter with special ammo please. He doesn't have Mighty Shot, he probably won't score maximum hits (which he needs), his single Power Axe attack will probably not be enough to fell the beast before it kills you.

Note that the Tactical Marine will also be in bigger trouble although Bolter Mastery and Mighty Shot would give him an edge over the Apothecary.
That said a Tyranid Warrior is dangerous and only the Assault Marine  can get into combat with enough confidence that he'll come out alive.

The Apothecary just doesn't add too much combat ability whether fighting Elites or hordes - unless he packs a heavy weapon, I guess.

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree though AK.  It is relative, but you can't really expect that he will be as good at combat as the others.  But, he is tough enough to stand in the line, take his share of hits, and deal out satisfactory damage and that makes him a poweful warrior which was my point I guess.

Just a thought, can an Apothecary become a Chaplain?  That might be interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zakalwe said:

I agree though AK.  It is relative, but you can't really expect that he will be as good at combat as the others.  But, he is tough enough to stand in the line, take his share of hits, and deal out satisfactory damage and that makes him a poweful warrior which was my point I guess.

Just a thought, can an Apothecary become a Chaplain?  That might be interesting.

 

Yeah, I think he doesn't have to keep up with the others. I advocate he should be giving something. Even the Devastator has superior defense in melee: Stalwart Defence. A talent that the Apothecary should rather have. Or a specific Solo Mode ability that helps him reach fallen Brothers.

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revised summary: in order to have an all-fighting-awesome team, exclude the apothecary.

It's stated above that only an assault marine can pick a fight with this or that space-nasty and hope to survive. Relatively speaking that puts the rest of the team in the same position as the apothecary, at least in that particular situation. Now, I won't disagree that the apothecary will never be in pool position for the highest kill-chance - unless, of course, he happens to be the only brother at hand - but that's not the purpose of the class either.

I didn't interpret the original question so much as  "how to turn the apothecary into a Dev/Ass/Tac equivalent?", but rather as how to make the most of the apothecary's advances from a killing-machine point of view. That said, it would still be interesting to turn the table and see how far you can take the kill-oriented classes in terms of winging it as an apothecary equivalent. I will look it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mooape said:

Revised summary: in order to have an all-fighting-awesome team, exclude the apothecary.

It's stated above that only an assault marine can pick a fight with this or that space-nasty and hope to survive. Relatively speaking that puts the rest of the team in the same position as the apothecary, at least in that particular situation. Now, I won't disagree that the apothecary will never be in pool position for the highest kill-chance - unless, of course, he happens to be the only brother at hand - but that's not the purpose of the class either.

I didn't interpret the original question so much as  "how to turn the apothecary into a Dev/Ass/Tac equivalent?", but rather as how to make the most of the apothecary's advances from a killing-machine point of view. That said, it would still be interesting to turn the table and see how far you can take the kill-oriented classes in terms of winging it as an apothecary equivalent. I will look it up.

How to make the most of the advances is simple? There isn't much you can do outside of Elite Advances. You don't get anything helping you in melee except late game. And when it comes to shooting, the gear is usually more important than the talents. That is why my advice has been: get Signature Wargear for the regular stuff you need so that you agve more req per mission and can buy the best weapons, ammo, weapon upgrades, etc.

That's what the Apothecary can do: Elite Advances and equipment.

Plus I don't lament that the Apothecary isn't a combat monster. It's just fine that he isn't. I lament that there is nothing truly fancy (combat-wise) for the Apothecary to pick as he advances.

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mooape said:

Revised summary: in order to have an all-fighting-awesome team, exclude the apothecary.

It's stated above that only an assault marine can pick a fight with this or that space-nasty and hope to survive. Relatively speaking that puts the rest of the team in the same position as the apothecary, at least in that particular situation. Now, I won't disagree that the apothecary will never be in pool position for the highest kill-chance - unless, of course, he happens to be the only brother at hand - but that's not the purpose of the class either.

I also agree that the apothecary shouldn't be an assault marine like killing machine. We have the assault marine for that. But most other classes with melee elements bring something to the table that the assault marine doesn't have. The Techmarine has a survivability that even the assault marine can't match and often gives him a place in melee next to the assault marine to take the hits the AM can't. The Librarian provides lots of tactical flexibility with unique and flavourfull effects and the potential of extreme one hit damage. The apothecary provides nothing unique or noteworthy outside his role as a back row healbot.

For example, they could have given the apothecary the role of the active debuffer. The guy who doesn't do much damage himself, but has talents that make enemies much easier/safer to kill if he hits them in melee. Something like lots of nasty poisons, or corrosive compounds he could use, or fighting techniques unique to the medicae focused character. That would give him a place in melee combat and provide something no one else does, keeping his role as a force multiplier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To do the above withe the Apoethecary, at Rank 1....

Take "Create Toxins" special ability

Spend 400XP for Chem-Use

Spend 600XP for Trade (Chymist)

Use mission requistion (and later XP) for a Diagnostor Helmet

You can now make Genophage (Toxin) which when employed on the tyargetted Big Bad (and it's only really usable against big bads because of it's very specific target requirements to make it) which ALSO has the Toxic quality.

You can also use things like Deadlock and any other number of exciting compounds to be found in the 40K universe.

 

Personally I find a couple of shells from a bolter generally deals with most issues though, or getting intimate with a chainsword.

 

Also, and this seems to have been vastly overlooked, while the other archetypes are buying up all their specialist traits the Apothecary can be buying up the traits on the General, Deathwatch and Chapter lists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moirdryd said:

while the other archetypes are buying up all their specialist traits the Apothecary can be buying up the traits on the General, Deathwatch and Chapter lists.

 

Because on the specialty table is little worthwhile, case closed.

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I was referring to most of the Apothercarion stuff being substantially cheaper than the multitude of traits on the other lists. Allowing for bonuses in skills and things as well as buying the shiny shinies from the Chapter /General/DW lists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ak-73 said:

 

Zakalwe said:

 

Mooape said:

 

So, to summarize: in order to make your apothecary more combat-awesome - have him wield a weapon.

 

 

Man I so agree.  I'm coming from Dark Heresy and looking at the starting abilities common to all space marines they are all combat monsters.  I've confirmed this by making a R1 Apothcary using Memetix's awesome spreadsheet.  There are no mook space marines, just varying degrees of awesomeness.

Give him a big sticky or shooty, like say, a power axe or a bolter, and he'll do just fine.  Heck, get a storm bolter.  Go on.

 

 

 

Sadly this is untrue because it's all relative. A Rank 4 Assault Marine can handle a Tyranid Warrior all by himself. A Rank 4 Dev has a chance if he can shoot him first with his Heavy Bolter. If he got DW suspensors and can survive a single round of attacks, he can try to step back and shoot him point-blank too. A Tech marine at least has his defenses and an additional Servo-arm attack. A Librarian can try to smite/force weapon the critter (yes, shadows of the warp, you better push it). A Rank 4 Apothecary is in deeper trouble. Give him a Power Axe and a Storm Bolter with special ammo please. He doesn't have Mighty Shot, he probably won't score maximum hits (which he needs), his single Power Axe attack will probably not be enough to fell the beast before it kills you.

Note that the Tactical Marine will also be in bigger trouble although Bolter Mastery and Mighty Shot would give him an edge over the Apothecary.
That said a Tyranid Warrior is dangerous and only the Assault Marine  can get into combat with enough confidence that he'll come out alive.

The Apothecary just doesn't add too much combat ability whether fighting Elites or hordes - unless he packs a heavy weapon, I guess.

 

Alex

 

 

I don't think that statement holds a ton of weight, mostly because you're argument is "The Apoc is weak because he's not as good as the ultra-specialized melee combatant."  The Dev is in big trouble if he gets jumped or can't take advantage of the fact that all combat in the 40k universe takes place in wide open arenas at medium range.  And when you look at a rank 4 Techmarine, he has a little more soakability than most of the party, but he doesn't really start to go nuts until 5 and 6.  So he might have a +2 to +4 toughness over another player (more if he focuses on it), but he's not yet at the point of needing anti-tank weapons to drop.

I think the apoc could use a few more cute tricks, but I hardly think he's ineffective as you seem to describe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Autarkis02 said:

 

I don't think that statement holds a ton of weight, mostly because you're argument is "The Apoc is weak because he's not as good as the ultra-specialized melee combatant."  The Dev is in big trouble if he gets jumped or can't take advantage of the fact that all combat in the 40k universe takes place in wide open arenas at medium range. 

I don't think anyone is saying that "the Apoc is weak because he's not as good as the ultra-specialized melee combatant." What we are saying is that the Apoc is not good for a Space Marine, period. It takes several ranks before the Apoc becomes significantly better in melee than the Dev, but unlike the Dev he doesn't have good ranged combat abilities ro fall back on.

Autarkis02 said:

And when you look at a rank 4 Techmarine, he has a little more soakability than most of the party, but he doesn't really start to go nuts until 5 and 6.  So he might have a +2 to +4 toughness over another player (more if he focuses on it), but he's not yet at the point of needing anti-tank weapons to drop.

I don't know, in my experience the difference starts at 5-7 points of AP at rank 1 (at least for the body location, depending on implants a bit less on other locations) and only goes up from there.

 

Autarkis02 said:

I think the apoc could use a few more cute tricks, but I hardly think he's ineffective as you seem to describe.

I may seem to be contradicting myself a bit when I say this, but this is honestly all I want for the Apothecary. Their medical abilities by themselves makes it hard to not call them effective combatants through force multiplication. It's just that it's just a single thing, very indirect, and not very interesting to do in a fight to boot. Every other DW marine excels at directly facing enemies in one form or another. The Apothecary is the only one who only excels in an area that doesn't directly involve bringing the glory of the emperor to the dirty Xenos in a personal and impressive manner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gokerz said:

I may seem to be contradicting myself a bit when I say this, but this is honestly all I want for the Apothecary. Their medical abilities by themselves makes it hard to not call them effective combatants through force multiplication. It's just that it's just a single thing, very indirect, and not very interesting to do in a fight to boot. Every other DW marine excels at directly facing enemies in one form or another. The Apothecary is the only one who only excels in an area that doesn't directly involve bringing the glory of the emperor to the dirty Xenos in a personal and impressive manner.

The Apothecary does more to bring the glory of the emperor to the enemies of mankind than any other battle brother. Apothecaries keep the true weapons of mankind fit for battle and ensure the legacy of the fallen. Without their skills, like all neglected machines, the Astartes would wear and fail. Personal glory is set aside but he may bask in the glory of those he healed, knowing that thier glory is ultimately his doing. 

Without the Apothecary the enemy would win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Autarkis02 said:

I don't think that statement holds a ton of weight, mostly because you're argument is "The Apoc is weak because he's not as good as the ultra-specialized melee combatant." 

Nope. My argument is that the Apothecary advance has nothing that makes a non-pure-roleplaying-oriented gamer look forward to.

Autarkis02 said:

The Dev is in big trouble if he gets jumped or can't take advantage of the fact that all combat in the 40k universe takes place in wide open arenas at medium range.  And when you look at a rank 4 Techmarine, he has a little more soakability than most of the party, but he doesn't really start to go nuts until 5 and 6.  So he might have a +2 to +4 toughness over another player (more if he focuses on it), but he's not yet at the point of needing anti-tank weapons to drop.

He has probably TB 10 and if he really wants to TB 12, he can have Flesh is Weak 2 and Artificer Armour. Note the keyword is can. The Apothecary cannot have anything flash-y like that. He doesn't have any fancy options.

 

Autarkis02 said:

I think the apoc could use a few more cute tricks, but I hardly think he's ineffective as you seem to describe.

 

He's as ineffective in melee as I described. In ranged combat, it's more a matter of gear anyway, as mentioned. Btw, all I have been arguing for is more or less the same thing - a few cute tricks, guys, just give him a bone to work with already. :)

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ItsUncertainWho said:

Gokerz said:

 

The Apothecary does more to bring the glory of the emperor to the enemies of mankind than any other battle brother. Apothecaries keep the true weapons of mankind fit for battle and ensure the legacy of the fallen. Without their skills, like all neglected machines, the Astartes would wear and fail. Personal glory is set aside but he may bask in the glory of those he healed, knowing that thier glory is ultimately his doing. 

Without the Apothecary the enemy would win.

 

Oh, the debate is way past the fluff of the apothecary I would say :D

 

Anyway.

I rolled a rank 8 yesterday and besides the ability to heal and collect gene-seed, I was able to come up with a farily awesome Wiki-Marine. And I was able to do so because -DING- the fancy combat-oriented advances weren't there to distract me.

If by intelligence and tactics one can gain an advantage in combat, I would argue that there are plenty of advances that would appeal to the non-pure-rp-oriented player too. The notion that skills and abilities other-than-gun/blade cannot ever help win the battle says more about the GM than the mechanics of the game. True, useful skills/abilities can be taken by other classes as well, but aren't they supposed to be focusing on their much combat-awesome advances?

So, the premises of the Apoth is to suck (relatively speaking) in biting/being bitten, and to be ace in other areas (relatively speaking). If nobody wants to be the healer, then there is no healer on the team - unless of course the GM runs it as an NPC (but we all know what happens to NPC's).

In my current group the GM asked me to play the apoth because nobody else wanted to. I agreed to do so because having 9 others do the killing and getting-blown-up for me would allow me to be a skill-monkey and, knowing my GM, being creative with skills can go a long way. Oh, and because a combat team without a combat medic isn't going to be much fun after a few encounters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I kind of regret my title of the thread now, since it wasn't my intention to ask how I could turn my apothecary into a combatmachine :) I was rather asking for advice as to how to get as much out of him as possible, combat-wise. I am well aware that he will never be as good as any of the more specialized chars - and he shouldn't be in my opinion. I totally agree, that if I wanted to turn an apothecary into a combat-machine, i'd be sort of silly. Better to take Geneseed Anomaly from RoB and get medicae for an assault marine or something like that, in that case.

The advices about going for toxins were pretty cool, as it hits the exact combination im looking for: utility and fluff. I know the auto-shotguns seems to be the most destructive weaponry, but then again my inner fluffbunny cries at that idea. I'm going to field a regular plasmagun and maybe some special ammo for my bolter. Hopefully I can convince the gamemaster of allowing me to use toxins quite often since that is hella cool.

Furthermore I am going to use most of my points taking what i'd call "roleplaying skills" - that is tech-use, interrogation and such things. That should hopefully mean that I will be of great use in situations where we aren't just rolling dice and subtracting numbers. Furthermore I made him a dark angel and bought paranoia, hoping to roleplay him as someone who sees ghosts and warp-taints everywhere. Very fluffy I feel.

In summary I choose the apothecary for two reasons: he is insanely cool from a fluff-point of view. I always field a command squad with one in tabletop, even though it is generally agreed that assault terminators are better. And second, because well - our deathwatch team has a tendency to get chopped up by nasties :) Please do continue the discussion however, and thank you for all the concrete suggestions of which skills to buy! that really helped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 What about an new talent that allows an Apothecary give Tearing to any melee weapon he wields? The idea is that he will know anatomy well enough to strike where it hurts with every blow, even with weapons that aren't bladed. This could be expanded to weapons with Tearing as a quality already, so the talent would act like Flesh Render.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Astartes Sniper Rifle

 

you know the one that fires needles made of poision that you can chain with your create toxins to bypass toxic resitance?  full action aim full action called shot to unarmored area of bad guy = dead bad guy.

in game stats  base 1d 10  accurate for 2d10 toxic for 1d10 felling to push unnatural toughness out the door. pen of sad but aimed+called means you dont need it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ak-73 said:

Of course you are preparing these toxins for your Devastator brothers most of the time, they got the sniping talentsand BS to match.

 

Alex

i disagree most the time a devistator is carrying your heavy weapon which will probably be melta/plama or a heavy bolter. none of those are suited to sniping. and if he is carrying a sniping weapon then your team lacks anti horde potential at range and could be made to suffer from that. id say make em for you and rail people from afar to start the fight with very few VERY EFFECTIVE shots  and give your kill team the ability to do what the do best, stomp a hole in the enemys of mankind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think im gonna do without the create toxins special ability - firing a needle sniper gun makes no sense as an apothecary imo, that job should be left to a dedicated long range killer like a tactical marine. I cant make myself do it and at heart its an RPG full of fluff which is what attracted me :) Firing a regular bolter with poisons feels VERY fluffy to me (or a chainsword obviously) - but poisons seems restricted to needle guns and injectors, so screw that :P

I'll buy a plasmagun and a chainsword, and take that enhanced healing special ability instead - as most times we wind up with critical wounds. That makes me feel fluffy and somewhat valuable and the poisons wont come into play as I think they are both unfluffy and situational.

kind regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...