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What scale is Dust Tactics? 1/48 is equal to what??

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I am sure this has been covered to exhaustion someplace, but I can't find it, and I want a simple answer:

What scale, in mm range, is Dust Tactics? I want some Japanese heads to make IJN paratroops for the game-- going to pop them on german bodies.

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I'm afraid there is no such thing.  1/48 is supposed to be that' everything is 1/48 scale yet my Tamiya Germans have different sized helmets deprnding on whether it is camoflaged or not.  28mm is not a real scale as manufacturers will make the models different sizes and go 'heroic'  size with weapons and heads which can vary greatly.  So, you need samples from manufacturers of 28mm and 1/48 scale models to see if they fit in with DT ok.  You might find that newer ranges might fit in better as these tend to be a bit bigger overall.  28mm is advertised as 1/56 scale. 

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1/48 Tamiya Americans, as an example, are the right height but DT figures are bulkier, weapons way thicker. Not sure but you might be ok w/ the heads...I know someone on these forums...a couple someones, switched heads and it looked mostly fine. Maybe a tad small.

Moiterie_1984 used heads from the Westwind-SHS system and they look great.

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DT is 1/48th scale just bulkier. You can use the vehicles but I wouldnt use the figured. The only thing i found to use the figures for is the accessories they come with are pretty cool to add to the models. Other scales similar are O-Scale Trains and 30-35mm models. Heroic 28mm is about 30mm, you can prob get away with head and weapons from these figures but not bodys. Unless you are planning on using orks or something that has no real proportions to compare to. Known stuff that fit this scale is Tamiya 1/48 vehicles, Heroclix, and any O-Scale Train stuff. Stuff that doesnt quite fit Warhammer except heads like mentioned, Warmachine is slightly bigger, and Flames of War and Wings of War are too small.

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1/48 scale = 33.5mm

28mm = 1/58 scale

As other have said actually miniatures vary and not all manufactures can agree on things. Some measure from base to eye, others measure to the top of the head. As Major Mishap said, some are advertising 28mm as 1/56.

For example of above, 15mm = 1/107 scale, but most manufactures make their vehicles 1/100 scale, but some do 1/110. This can be seen on the table. 

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mdivancic said:

1/48 scale = 33.5mm

28mm = 1/58 scale

As other have said actually miniatures vary and not all manufactures can agree on things. Some measure from base to eye, others measure to the top of the head. As Major Mishap said, some are advertising 28mm as 1/56.

For example of above, 15mm = 1/107 scale, but most manufactures make their vehicles 1/100 scale, but some do 1/110. This can be seen on the table. 

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, other than companies that don't know what they're talking about (which includes many miniatures game companies).

 A 6' man (182.8cm) would be 38.1mm in 1:48 scale, and 32.6mm in 1:56 scale.  I don't recall seeing models in 1:58 scale, but a 6' man would be 31.5mm tall to match anything you could find there.  33.5mm gives a man 5'3" (160.8cm) tall for 1:48, with 28mm running almost the same for 1:58 (5'2" (156.8cm) for 1:56 scale).  5'3" works for the average Japanese soldier in WW2, but not for the European theater or US Marines.

 Of course, miniatures manufacturers use four primary forms of measurement when they declare a miniatures height, which makes scale comparison harder to codify.  The numbers I gave are based on full miniature height, as we would measure an actual man; from the bottom of the foot to the top of the head.  Some companies measure from the bottom of the base for the low point, and some only measure to the eyes for the high point, with mixes of which they pair up to give the four options I mentioned. 

Scale measurements are an actual scale reference, where 1:48 means each inch of measurement on the model equals 48" for a full sized example.

 You can find a lot of wiggle room, as taking people ranging from 5'-7' tall gives you a variance of 12.7mm in 1:48 scale down to 10.9mm in 1:56 scale.

 My Dust figures range from 35-38mm for standing men, where the heavy armor would add a bit, and standing fully upright would as well.  That puts the men in the 5'6" (168cm) to 6' (182.8cm) range in 1:48 scale.  Rosie Donovan is 34mm with one of the most erect postures I've seen, which would make her 5'4" (163.2cm) for a reasonably sized woman.

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Actually, they know exactly what they are doing, they just do it different then you.  Many figure manufactures measure the figure from the base of the foot to the eyes. I can't tell you where most manufactures are today, but in the past almost all did it this way. This is where the 1/56 scale figures came from. Bolt Action Miniatures, Company B, Sloppy Jalopy and many others have been making vehicles in 1/56 scale for years.

If you want you can read more about scale in miniatures on sites like The Miniatures Page. They have some good articles in there features section that have been there for years.

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Lotus said:

1/48 Tamiya Americans, as an example, are the right height but DT figures are bulkier, weapons way thicker. Not sure but you might be ok w/ the heads...I know someone on these forums...a couple someones, switched heads and it looked mostly fine. Maybe a tad small.

Moiterie_1984 used heads from the Westwind-SHS system and they look great.

The Tamiya Americans are IA1 troops.  They don't have the access to the flak armor and new high tech weapons that make the Rangers look bulkier.

 

Oh, the Rangers do more PT too, you know, more buff....  gran_risa.gif

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mdivancic said:

Actually, they know exactly what they are doing, they just do it different then you.  Many figure manufactures measure the figure from the base of the foot to the eyes. I can't tell you where most manufactures are today, but in the past almost all did it this way. This is where the 1/56 scale figures came from. Bolt Action Miniatures, Company B, Sloppy Jalopy and many others have been making vehicles in 1/56 scale for years.

If you want you can read more about scale in miniatures on sites like The Miniatures Page. They have some good articles in there features section that have been there for years.

Measuring to different points on a model is not inherently a problem.  The issue comes into play when they are referenced without context.  A model that is 33.5mm tall in 1:48 scale represents something 33.5x48mm, or 1608mm, or 5'3.3".  If that is to the top of the head, it's someone short.  I'm about 3.5" from the top of my eyes to the top of my head, so if you add that, the model goes up to just shy of 5'7", which is a little closer, though I'm over 6'.

If someone has come into this new, and you tell them a model is 33.5mm tall, how do you expect most of them to think?  We don't measure people only up to their eyes to say how tall they are.  I'm not 5'9.5" tall, I'm 6'1" tall.

I question the assertion that most miniatures manufacturers go foot to eyes, because scale issues due to the varied practices have been an issue for all 30+ years I've been gaming for games that announce height in mm.  If people stuck with proper scale, things would not be as much of a problem.  When people go with a height without reference, you get problems. 

 Scale is a good thing, and has never been a major issue for good model makers.  Some low budget companies have been bad at maintaining scale, but that's become less common than it used to be.  1:48 is 1:48, for whatever you're measuing.

Gaming miniatures companies, however, have had big issues for people, because they moved away from scale, and into a simple height reference.  They then let the height reference grow as well as shift what they measured, so they could more easily add the details people wanted on their models.  I stayed away from 15mm Napoleonics because they were the first place to feel the four measurement point problem.  At 15mm, varying what point is 15mm between the four styles gives a huge variety in actual miniature height when compared together.

 25mm was 1:72 when I started gaming, and most of my miniatures were close to an inch, and so close to 6' in reference height.  That became 25mm heroic, which was finally acknowledged as 28mm, which became 28mm heroic, and know we have the range of claims out today. 

Another company proudly proclaims their miniatures as 'True 28mm' which they then explain as 28mm to the eyes.  They aren't wrong, though the claim is frivolous, so long as they stay consistent.  The question then comes along as to what scale their models are.  As I recall, they go on to say their models are 32.5mm in actual height.  If you take that as a 6' tall person, they would be close to 1:56 scale, but their setting is at a time when people were rarely that close to 6' tall, so what does it mean?

 Dust sells models that are 1:48 scale, and the height of the miniatures fits, whether based to the eyes, or the top of the head.  I have several miniatures from other companies that claim from 28mm to 32mm 'scale' on my painting table, yet all look reasonable next to my Dust models.

So call your miniatures whatever scale you want, but if you reference a height, please say what you're measuring, so the rest of us can understand what you're talking about.

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Algesan said:

Lotus said:

 

1/48 Tamiya Americans, as an example, are the right height but DT figures are bulkier, weapons way thicker. Not sure but you might be ok w/ the heads...I know someone on these forums...a couple someones, switched heads and it looked mostly fine. Maybe a tad small.

Moiterie_1984 used heads from the Westwind-SHS system and they look great.

 

 

The Tamiya Americans are IA1 troops.  They don't have the access to the flak armor and new high tech weapons that make the Rangers look bulkier.

 

Oh, the Rangers do more PT too, you know, more buff....  gran_risa.gif

Heh, yeah...the Tamiya soldiers are draftees.

Seriously, I think they work pretty well, the height is the same. Plus they usually come w/ a couple tankers for the models. No complaints here.

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I've tried Tamiya figs. they dont work for scale due to Tamiya making "realistic" proportioned figures, u cant use the heads or weapons they aren't even close. Heads that will work are are referred to as 28mm or "heroic scale". Companies like maxmini or shs from westwind work well for scale.

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I would say the assault group is the company you are looking for. They make the best Japanese I have found. There scale is 28mm. Old glory miniatures also make japanese. They are cheaper but the cats are not as good as the assault goup.

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Einsturzende Amerika said:

 have anyone tried the 28mm models from Wargames factory. I got some on the way I hope they work... I will let you all know in a week here's a link folks 

Based on some of their other minis I would guess they will be close. They matched the AT43 scale very closely and that was 1/48.

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War Games Factory Is a larger scale than dust tactics. I would say 32mm. They are hard plastic casts and are a c- at best. If you are looking for alternate heads try Pig Iron Productions, or maxi Mini. The War store. com  carries bothe lines. The war store is the bomb! They carry tones of mimies and games. Thier prices are great and there service is second to none! Just be shure to pay your bills before you go to this site.

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Measuring to the eyes is the standard in most figures. It comes from the fact that for many figures, like Napoleonics, the head is often covered by gear that extends significantly past the top of the head, meaning that you can't use that as a measurement. Of course this "standard" varies significantly. "Heroics" in particular as they tend to be bigger (in fact I have seen it argued that 28mm is purely the result of inflating 25mm figures… and that then got inflated to 32mm when they started to make "heroic" 28mm) and have bigger hands, heads and guns compared to the rest of the body. The degree to the inflation varies between companies meaning models that are meant to be the same scale just don't work beside each other.

 

Everyone should just play 20mm/1:72. Would be so much easier. It is the One True Scale! after all

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borithan said:

Measuring to the eyes is the standard in most figures. It comes from the fact that for many figures, like Napoleonics, the head is often covered by gear that extends significantly past the top of the head, meaning that you can't use that as a measurement. Of course this "standard" varies significantly. "Heroics" in particular as they tend to be bigger (in fact I have seen it argued that 28mm is purely the result of inflating 25mm figures… and that then got inflated to 32mm when they started to make "heroic" 28mm) and have bigger hands, heads and guns compared to the rest of the body. The degree to the inflation varies between companies meaning models that are meant to be the same scale just don't work beside each other.

 

Everyone should just play 20mm/1:72. Would be so much easier. It is the One True Scale! after all

1:72 used to be called 25mm when I got into playing, because more companies were measuring miniatures in 25mm to the top of the head, or simply scaling based of the the height of the actual model.  Napoleonics companies were the ones accused of measuring in multiple ways to say they were doing 15mm figures even though they didn't match each other. 

At 1:72 scale, a 6' tall person (72") is 1" tall.  If you add 6" of head gear to the real person, you add ~2mm to the figure (6/72x25.4=2.12mm).  Scale isn't hard to calculate, but you have to be willing to do the calculations, and some companies don't care so long as they're close.  Even at 1:72 scale, the difference between a 5' and a 7' person is over 8mm (21-29mm), and that fits a functional range of normal people.

I read an article where one of the miniatures companies acknowledged they inflated 25mm figures to get to 28mm.  They wanted to make slightly larger figures to make detail easier, but distributors complained about not wanting to carry a new scale of miniature.  They came back calling the miniatures 25mm 'Heroic' and nobody batted an eye at them.  Once they were an established commodity, they changed to calling them 28mm.

At 1:48 scale, the range from a 5-7' person shifts from 31.8-44.5mm for height to the top of the head.  So long as the models look good together, some variance in model height can simply make the army look more like a real mix of people.

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Gimp said:

 

1:72 used to be called 25mm when I got into playing, because more companies were measuring miniatures in 25mm to the top of the head, or simply scaling based of the the height of the actual model.  Napoleonics companies were the ones accused of measuring in multiple ways to say they were doing 15mm figures even though they didn't match each other. 

At 1:72 scale, a 6' tall person (72") is 1" tall.  If you add 6" of head gear to the real person, you add ~2mm to the figure (6/72x25.4=2.12mm).  Scale isn't hard to calculate, but you have to be willing to do the calculations, and some companies don't care so long as they're close.  Even at 1:72 scale, the difference between a 5' and a 7' person is over 8mm (21-29mm), and that fits a functional range of normal people.

At 1:48 scale, the range from a 5-7' person shifts from 31.8-44.5mm for height to the top of the head.  So long as the models look good together, some variance in model height can simply make the army look more like a real mix of people.

I have to say that everyone I know, some of whom have been gaming for decades, consider 1/72 to be 20mm (though I think technically it is 1/76). I have always known it as 20mm (though I would say my first experience was only about 10-12 years ago). I have some "true" 25mms (which just isn't that common a scale anymore) and they are clearly much bigger than 20mm, and clearly far too big for 1/72 scale tanks and the like, while being short (and slim… they are not "heroic" style at all) enough that they just wouldn't work with 28mm.

The truth is that 20mms are not 20mm tall (they are just over… again it seems they are measuring to the eyes, though, as you say, sizes are not constant between different miniatures companies), and most people are not 6 foot tall (the average modern height is 5'10", and historically people have been smaller… though I don't think that is actually reflected in model sizes).

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Hay Gimp is Borithan a relative? You both seem to give very long answers!!!!!! Just kidding you both make good points. Having had a profession modeling business for a number of years I have always heard from the manufactures height was measured to the eyes. However this still never explained the different 28mm heights of minis as again every manufacture had a different sculpting style. For modeling scales 1/48 or 1/4 scale was very close to 28mm again except for the sculpting styles. Because of this i tried not to mix to many minis into a single game. That was about the best answer I could come up with.

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@mgentile7,  As far as I know, there's only one person related to me that has ever posted on the FFG forums, and it isn't Borithan.  So be afraid.  Be very afraid!sorpresa.gif  There are other people that post like me!llorando.gifgran_risa.gif

Scale is very specific, as it's the mathematical explanation of variation from the original.

20mm as 1:72 is rather odd, even for height to the eyes, as 20x72=144mm, which would convert to 56.7", and I don't think many people are 4'8.7" to their eyes.

25mm for 1:72 as a measure to the top of the head is less than 6', converting to 5'10.9", so it's slightly tall for an average person, but closer than 20mm by far.

I've been playing the scale game for over thirty years, and have happily decided that, so long as the miniatures look reasonable together, I don't care what scale they are claimed to be.

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Yes, that is the best position to take. The truth is that none of the xmms are actually "scales". However, as you say, it matters whether they look right together, and I have to say that I have seen nothing advertised as 25mm that fits with 1/72 scale models.

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borithan said:

Yes, that is the best position to take. The truth is that none of the xmms are actually "scales". However, as you say, it matters whether they look right together, and I have to say that I have seen nothing advertised as 25mm that fits with 1/72 scale models.

I've dealt with some, but many 25mm figures wind up looking off because of the basing.  Take a miniature in the right scale, and mount it standing a foot off the ground in scale, and it looks odd next to a scale vehicle that isn't mounted high.

Mix that with poor scaling on the castings, and you can have problems.

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