Attacking Players Strength Reduced to 0

[Bomb 66]

I know I've read this somewhere but I am struggling to find it and may very well be overlooking the answer in the FAQ and am struggling to use the search feature on this site.

I know that even with defenders declared, if the Defending players total strength reaches 0, the challenge is considered unopposed for rewarding for unopposed power.

What happens if I happen to have declared attackers but somehow their strength was reduced down enough for the Attacking player to have a side of 0 strength?  If the defending players side also has 0 strength, is the challenge considered to be an unopposed win for the attacker because attackers win ties?  I know that you cannot initiated a challenge with less than 1 strength, but after the challenge is initiated, can I assume it can be won with 0 strength against a 0 strength defender?   Nothing leads me to think otherwise except that I can't find the reference I thought I read in the past to clarify.

 

Thank you. :-)

[Fieras 0]

Attacker can't win a challenge with a strength of zero.

The challenge fizzles.

[ktom 598]

Bomb said:

I know I've read this somewhere but I am struggling to find it and may very well be overlooking the answer in the FAQ and am struggling to use the search feature on this site.

Well, there is always the rule book. 

Step 3: Resolve (p. 14):

"The player whose side has the highest total STR wins the challenge. Tied STR goes to the attacker, as long as the attacker has at least 1 total STR on his side. (A challenge may not be won by an attacker or defender whose total STR is less than 1, or who has no participating characters when the challenge is resolved.)"

Bomb said:

I know that you cannot initiated a challenge with less than 1 strength, 

This is not actually true. You must have at least 1 character with the appropriate icon to initiate a challenge, but you don't have to have any STR until the resolution - assuming you want to win. If you have a 0 STR character, it can attack all on it's own. Have at it. Just remember to pump up its STR if you intend to win the challenge.

[Bomb 66]

Thank you both for your replies.

So it was literally in the Core Rule Book??  I didn't even think of looking in that for this and that must have been where I saw it before.

-----------

Here's another scenario.  If I have the attachment Dragon Sight and it is Summer, must I select any attackers after the opponent has selected defenders?  Could I use this to bluff and hopefully make the opponent kneel some characters to defend themselves?

Card text for Dragon Sight:

Skill

Targaryan only.

Attach to your House card. If if is Summer, when you declare a challenge type, your opponent must declare defenders before you declare attackers. The opportunity for your opponent to declare defenders after you declare attackers is lost.

So, I could theoretically just make the challenge fizzle just to kneel some of my opponents characters even if I never intended to use any attackers, right?  And if the opponent chooses to not declare defenders, I can simply also not declare attackers?

Is it possible to initiate a challenge normally and then elect to not declare any attackers?  I mean, you could use Great Jon Umber(CS) after the defender chooses not to declare any defenders seeing that it may be pointless to defend a challenge while against no attackers.  His ability is an Any Phase one so you could win the challenge this way.  Similar with Horseback Archers where you can kneel 1 influence and put them into play from your hand as an attacker or defender after the defender has declared no defenders.

Is that possible?

[schrecklich 0]

 Bomb, here is a quote from Rogue30's site.  I believe it is a direct quotation of ktom, but it might be a summary:

So, the only thing that really changes is that declaring defenders essentially becomes part of initiating the challenge. Note that the normal things REQUIRED to initiate a challenge (announcing challenge type AND declaring attackers) still must take place. The basic rule "you must declare at least one attacking character in order to initiate a challenge" is not contradicted, suspended or superseded by anything in Dragon Sight's text.

Also note that since the opportunity to declare defenders at the "normal time" goes away, stealth essentially becomes meaningless and will not keep a defending character out of a particular challenge. Stealthing a character that is already participating as a defender will not "bounce" it out of the challenge or otherwise stop it from adding its STR as a defender.

When you take the above and apply it to the original questions, you get the following:

- The attacking player MUST declare at least one attacking character after seeing which characters will be defending. It is part of initiating the challenge (a process you started by announcing the challenge type). If you don't declare at least one attacking character, you didn't initiate the challenge. And if you didn't initiate the challenge, there is nothing for those declared defenders to be participating in. So no, Dragon Sight cannot be used to back out of kneeling attackers after seeing how big the defense will be.

[ktom 598]

schrecklich said:

- The attacking player MUST declare at least one attacking character after seeing which characters will be defending. It is part of initiating the challenge (a process you started by announcing the challenge type). If you don't declare at least one attacking character, you didn't initiate the challenge. And if you didn't initiate the challenge, there is nothing for those declared defenders to be participating in. So no, Dragon Sight cannot be used to back out of kneeling attackers after seeing how big the defense will be.

Exactly. Said another way, declaring a challenge is usually a 2-step process:

1. Announce challenge type & defender
2. Declare/kneel attacking characters

Both must happen in order for the challenge to be initiated. Despite there being 2 steps, it is an "all or none" proposition.

Dragon Sight just makes it a 3-step process:

1. Annonce challenge type & defender
2. Declare/kneel defending characters
3. Declare/kneel attacking characters

Again, all steps must happen in order for the challenge to be initiated. Despite there being 3 steps, it is an "all or none" proposition. You cannot "change your mind" and skip Step 3 in the Dragon Sight situation any more than you can "change your mind" and skip declaring attackers in the non-Dragon Sight situation.

 

Along those same lines, you should be able to see that since you cannot skip the "declare/kneel attacking characters" step to initiating challenges, you cannot use Dragon Sight to say the challenge has started without a declared attacker, then you Greatjon, Horseback Archers, or some other jumping character as the only attacker.

Moral of the story: Even with Dragon Sight, you can never initiate a challenge without declaring at least 1 attacking character.

[Fieras 0]

ktom said:

This is not actually true. You must have at least 1 character with the appropriate icon to initiate a challenge, but you don't have to have any STR until the resolution - assuming you want to win. If you have a 0 STR character, it can attack all on it's own. Have at it. Just remember to pump up its STR if you intend to win the challenge.

 

Question 1: So if you have the military title, you can initiate a military challenge with a strength zero carrion bird, and then win it because of the +3 bonus from the title?

Question 2: If someone declares a military challenge with strength zero, at what point is the defender declared a winner?  Are they able to block a zero strength challenge in order to be considered a winner of the challenge?

[ktom 598]

Fieras said:

Question 1: So if you have the military title, you can initiate a military challenge with a strength zero carrion bird, and then win it because of the +3 bonus from the title?

Yes.

Fieras said:

Question 2: If someone declares a military challenge with strength zero, at what point is the defender declared a winner?  Are they able to block a zero strength challenge in order to be considered a winner of the challenge?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The STR of the attacking character doesn't make any difference, or factor into anything, until challenge resolution. Having a 0-STR attacker doesn't change when a defending player would declare/kneel defenders, when or how the challenge is resolved, or any other aspect of timing. So the defender is declared the winner at the same point as they would be declared the winner if the attacker had attacked with The Great Host, King Robb's Host, and any number of other characters with high STR.

Of course, if the defender want's to win, they had better declare a defending character and have a combined STR greater than 0. However, since the attacker cannot win the challenge with STR 0, the defender may choose not to defend at all - and let the challenge go without any winner.

Remember that if the attacker doesn't win, that does not necessarily mean the defender wins. Challenges can have no winner - and no loser - if neither player meets the basic requirements for winning (at least 1 participating character and a combined STR greater than 0).

[Bomb 66]

What would happen then if, let's say, I have 1 eligible character remaining for a challenge with Dragon Sight.  I declare a challenge against an opponent.

After the opponent declares 1 or more defenders(by kneeling them) however, somehow my 1 character leaves play or is knelt(this could be a response to declaring defenders).  Now I can't declare any attackers.  However, the rules say I must declare one attacking character to initiate a challenge.

Does this allow the defending characters to stand back up because the challenge could not legally continue?  My problem with this scenario is that it is not taken into consideration.  The Dragon Sight attachment changes the way the challenge framework action works.

Normally it's:

1. Choose a challenge type and an opponent

2. Attacking player kneels characters to attack with

3. Player Action

4. Declare stealth

5. Defending player kneels characters to defend with

 

With Dragon Sight is it?:

1. Choose a challenge type and an opponent

2. Defending player kneels characters to defend with

3. Player Action

4. Attacking player kneels characters to attack with

5. Declare stealth(maybe for the purposes of responses)

 

Let's say that the only eligible attacking character is made ineligible as a response to defending characters being knelt or being declared.  What happens besides the challenge fizzling?  The challenge technically can't be initiated according to the above posts but so much has happened as a result of the challenge.  Normally initiating a challenge and then declaring attackers is uninterruptable, right?

[Saturnine 47]

Bomb said:

With Dragon Sight is it?:

1. Choose a challenge type and an opponent

2. Defending player kneels characters to defend with

3. Player Action

4. Attacking player kneels characters to attack with

5. Declare stealth(maybe for the purposes of responses)

 

What makes you think there's a window for player actions between declaring defenders and declaring attackers? I think it should be 1,2,4,3,5.

[-Istaril 157]

I believe the correct interpretation of Dragon Sight is:

1. (Choose a challange)
2. (defending player kneels)
3. (attacking player kneels)
4. (player action window)

(Bold indicates framework actions, "initiating a challenge").

All Dragon Sight has done has made "declare defenders" happen as part of initiating the challenge before attacker kneels, therefore before the player action window. There is no window for anything to happen between 2 and 3, as it's all part of the same framework window.

Edit: Beat me to it by seconds Saturnine!

[Saturnine 47]

-Istaril said:

Edit: Beat me to it by seconds Saturnine!

 

Your reply was nicer, though, with formatted text and everything

[ktom 598]

Bomb said:

After the opponent declares 1 or more defenders(by kneeling them) however, somehow my 1 character leaves play or is knelt(this could be a response to declaring defenders).  Now I can't declare any attackers.  However, the rules say I must declare one attacking character to initiate a challenge.

You are misunderstanding the timing here.

Normally, declaring a challenge involves 2 framework events:

1. Announce challenge type/defending player
2. Declare/kneel attacking characters.

You are not able to take any Player Actions, trigger any Responses, or resolve any passive effect within those framework events before both things are done. There is no place in the timing structure to do anything until both of those framework events are complete.

With Dragon Sight, there are now 3 framework events involved in declaring a challenge:

1. Announce challenge type/defending player
2. Defending player declares/kneels defending characters
3. Attacking player declares/kneels attacking characters

But you still are not able to take any Player Actions, trigger any Responses, or resolve any passive effect within those framework events before all three things are done. So if you go to initiate the challenge, there is no place in the timing structure between the "declare defenders" and "declare attackers" framework events to do anything that would take your only eligible attacker out of play. And even if there was, you are still in the single "initiate challenge" framework window, so that "removed from play" attacker would still be moribund and physically on the table for you to declare.

Normally, declaring attacking characters and declaring defending characters happens in two separate framework windows, separated by a player action window. With Dragon Sight, they take place in the SAME framework wind. You have as much chance of removing the eligible attacker from play with a Response to declaring the defender before it can be initiated as you would have removing a Renown character from play with a Response to winning/losing the challenge before Renown is awarded. In short, no chance at all.

Bomb said:

Normally initiating a challenge and then declaring attackers is uninterruptable, right?

Declaring the attackers is PART of initiating the challenge. The challenge is not actually initiated (ie, the challenge duration does not start) until the attackers are declared. It's not so much "uninterruptable" as it is if you haven't declared an attacker, you never actually initiated the challenge in the first place. From the above, I hope you can see that with Dragon Sight, declaring the defenders takes on that same status within initiating the challenge. And that nothing can happen between declaring the defenders and declaring the attackers.

So your "what would happen" questions essentially boil down to "it can never happen."

[ktom 598]

Saturnine said:

-Istaril said:

 

Edit: Beat me to it by seconds Saturnine!

 

 

 

Your reply was nicer, though, with formatted text and everything

(And mine's more comprehensive.)

[Bomb 66]

What makes anyone think a card changes the way the game normally works?  I deduced that there is normally a player action window between declaring attackers and defenders from the normal Challenge timing windows.  And since I don't know exactly how Dragon Sight changes the world, I had asked if that was now the Challenge timing windows were aligned.

I must not have understood the definition of Framework Event when trying to understand the timing windows.  I get how Framework Action windows work better now. Thanks everyone for explaining how that works in detail!