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JMorgenroth

Scouts?

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 Let us first state that there are no scouts in the deathwatch. Why not? the same reason as that there are no tactical marines in the deathwatch.

Being a devastator, assualt, tactical or scout was what you were before you took the oaths. A deathwatch marine is required to be adaptive and change his style based on the mission. So when the mission requires brute slaughter the marines will take their power armour or even terminator. If it requires stealth they take the scout armour. It all depends on the mission and how they plan to succeed. you can have specialists, but in the end each marine must be able to do what is required.

Secondly I want every one to remind them that becoming a deathwatch marine requires being a hero in his own right. So deathwatch marines have seen many years as a battle brother before they are even considered for the post.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

I don't think it'd be all that common, actually - the greatest value of a veteran Scout Sergeant is in his ability to pass on hard-won experience to the next generation of Space Marines. Indeed, I imagine that there are quite a few Scout Sergeants serving in various Astartes Chapters who have Deathwatch experience, having served a Vigil long before becoming instructors, with their time in a Kill-Team giving them a far broader appreciation for small unit tactics, unorthodox strategies and a wide range of operations and enemies... upon returning to their Chapter, those experiences make many of those Battle Brothers (particularly those with leadership experience) extremely useful as leaders and instructors for Scouts, if they choose to take on such a responsibility. .

I agree with you. Apparently I thought, but didn't write, that to actually successfully recruit a veteran Scout Sargent would be a very rare occurrence as most chapters would not be inclined to let them go.

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I disagree, having veteran sergeants in your ranks is somewhat common, some remain in the combat companies, others become Scout Sergeants to pass on knowledge. But the idea would be for them to acquire the best knowledge or more of it. Cyrus stated in his fiction that he did his tenure, for an unknown length of time, to make it so he had the most valuable knowledge to pass onto the new brothers of the chapter.

I'm not saying that chapters would be sending throngs of menu to the deathwatch, but they'd send some of their best. A) For the best opportunity to survive the term of service and return with the knowledge gained and B) For the breadth, depth, and variety of skills that could be learned from other chapters behavior (this goes with the continued rivalries between some chapters) as well as from the missions themselves.

Not to mention it has been noted in Sergeant Cyrus' fiction that he never left the 10th company as a scout other than his term in the deathwatch. Similarly Sergeant Telion from the Ultramarines has never left the scout company. He's chosen to always remain and train the future, but he's become specialized into the ambush and infiltration tactics from never advancing to the combat companies after he was a full fledged space marine.

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DaedalRogue said:

Similarly Sergeant Telion from the Ultramarines has never left the scout company. He's chosen to always remain and train the future, but he's become specialized into the ambush and infiltration tactics from never advancing to the combat companies after he was a full fledged space marine.

So... he's completely abandoned the Codex-approved methods of training a Space Marine... yeah, I don't see it.

As far as I understand it, there is no choice in the matter - in a Codex-adherent Chapter, a Scout who has earned his Black Carapace will become a full Battle Brother in a Devastator squad (most likely, IMO, in the 9th company rather than one of the battle companies), then continue as an Assault Marine and then as a Tactical Marine... and only after that, and a great heap more experience on top of that, does that Battle Brother get any choice in how and where he gets deployed. That progression is essential because it provides the Battle Brother with full training and experience in every facet of warfare employed by the Astartes - a Space Marine isn't fully-trained until he's gone through all that. At that point, he'll get to pick whether he wants to stick around as a Tactical Marine or join a Devastator or Assault Squad (this time in one of the Battle Companies, to ensure that only those who're experienced and worthy are regularly deployed to the front lines), etc. This would be even more important for a Scout Sergeant, as they have to be able to teach not only stealth and infiltration, but the principles and theories of warfare as a whole in order to prepare each group of Scouts to become full-fledged Space Marines - Telion is described as being a master of all aspects of warfare, which fits this concept nicely.

That, I think, is the most defining and important part of a Scout Sergeant character - they might well be well-versed in stealth, ambush and infiltration operations... but they can't afford to be ignorant about anything else, because first and foremost they're teachers.

I'm not disputing that a noteworthy proportion (likely still a minority, though) of Scout Sergeants will have Deathwatch experience. What I'm saying is that it's more likely, IMO, that they'd have gained that experience before becoming Scout Sergeants upon their return to their Chapters... because sending an established Scout Sergeant deprives the Chapter of a skilled and experienced teacher for their Scouts.

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@N0-1_H3r3

But I think one point to make might still be that the sort of marines who do go on to become veteran scout sergeants (and have served in the Deathwatch), may indeed serve in a "scout" role within the Deathwatch.

I guess the point is that it really is a lost oppurtunity that there isn't a scout specialization.

Its the same as how devastators and assault marines in Deathwatch are considered to have quite likely contiunued on to become a full tactical marine (in a codex adherent chapter). They serve as their preferred combat role. Rites of Battle indeed shows that there is some form of specialty Deathwatch Scout armour. I do think there is enough varied about the scout role that it could remain survivable, while having its own special features.

Certainly, such marines would bring their own power armour, just the gear of the specialization could include more appropriate gear (scout armour as standard gear, etc.)

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

DaedalRogue said:

Similarly Sergeant Telion from the Ultramarines has never left the scout company. He's chosen to always remain and train the future, but he's become specialized into the ambush and infiltration tactics from never advancing to the combat companies after he was a full fledged space marine.

 

So... he's completely abandoned the Codex-approved methods of training a Space Marine... yeah, I don't see it.

As far as I understand it, there is no choice in the matter - in a Codex-adherent Chapter, a Scout who has earned his Black Carapace will become a full Battle Brother in a Devastator squad (most likely, IMO, in the 9th company rather than one of the battle companies), then continue as an Assault Marine and then as a Tactical Marine... and only after that, and a great heap more experience on top of that, does that Battle Brother get any choice in how and where he gets deployed. That progression is essential because it provides the Battle Brother with full training and experience in every facet of warfare employed by the Astartes - a Space Marine isn't fully-trained until he's gone through all that. At that point, he'll get to pick whether he wants to stick around as a Tactical Marine or join a Devastator or Assault Squad (this time in one of the Battle Companies, to ensure that only those who're experienced and worthy are regularly deployed to the front lines), etc. This would be even more important for a Scout Sergeant, as they have to be able to teach not only stealth and infiltration, but the principles and theories of warfare as a whole in order to prepare each group of Scouts to become full-fledged Space Marines - Telion is described as being a master of all aspects of warfare, which fits this concept nicely.

That, I think, is the most defining and important part of a Scout Sergeant character - they might well be well-versed in stealth, ambush and infiltration operations... but they can't afford to be ignorant about anything else, because first and foremost they're teachers.

I'm not disputing that a noteworthy proportion (likely still a minority, though) of Scout Sergeants will have Deathwatch experience. What I'm saying is that it's more likely, IMO, that they'd have gained that experience before becoming Scout Sergeants upon their return to their Chapters... because sending an established Scout Sergeant deprives the Chapter of a skilled and experienced teacher for their Scouts.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

DaedalRogue said:

Similarly Sergeant Telion from the Ultramarines has never left the scout company. He's chosen to always remain and train the future, but he's become specialized into the ambush and infiltration tactics from never advancing to the combat companies after he was a full fledged space marine.

 

So... he's completely abandoned the Codex-approved methods of training a Space Marine... yeah, I don't see it.

That's not to say he didn't do his time in the trenches with the rest. He's just opted to be in the scout company for as long as he's been available to be there. Take a look at his history on Lexicanum. He's been around for a very long time, but like his other comparative experienced and well written about fiction scout he emphasizes those unorthodox combat methods.

The idea I'm presenting is that these are individuals that end up being less given over to the inquisition and more recruited by them for their way of thinking. Being that going to serve in the Deathwatch is an honor and the chapters are bound by their agreement to the inquisition.

Also this has really been debated before and really came to no good conclusion after reading through that entire thread.

Brother Praetus said:

Deathwatch page 309: Recruitment

"Most Battle-Brothers are veterans of a hundred alien wars before being inducted into the Deathwatch, but selection is not made upon length of service alone. In theory, even a Scout who shows exceptional skill at arms against the xenos may be selected to serve, although such an event is extremely rare."

It is ultimately the choice of the Watch Commander as to who will be accepted, but it falls to the Chaplains, Apothecaries and Chapter Masters to screen those who may be of service and forward the names of those deemed worthy to the Deathwatch.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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