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JMorgenroth

Scouts?

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Could one of you give me a feel for how a scout-build works within the Deathwatch rules? One of my players wants to make a Space Wolf scout, and I think we can make it work, but does anyone have any thoughts on how not being in power armor plays out in-game?

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JMorgenroth said:

Could one of you give me a feel for how a scout-build works within the Deathwatch rules? One of my players wants to make a Space Wolf scout, and I think we can make it work, but does anyone have any thoughts on how not being in power armor plays out in-game?

 

It's okay, especially if you have S and T 50+. Don't get shot into the head.

 

Alex

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You'd lose the toughness bonus and strength bonus for being in power armour. Space marine Scouts aren't actually fully formed space marines and so the stats to start with should be reduced by 5pts. Also, the general bonus for lifting and carrying is completly gone. however, i believe that scouts should have a bonus for things such as concealment and shadowing enemies.

I think that all scouts should have a sniper rifle and a camo cloak as issued wargear. i don't know if they have an entry in the rulebook for the camo cloak but they might.

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Rexasure said:

You'd lose the toughness bonus and strength bonus for being in power armour. Space marine Scouts aren't actually fully formed space marines and so the stats to start with should be reduced by 5pts.

Space Wolves scouts are, which he is playing.

Deathwatch only takes fully formed Space Marines.

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Well i'm sure that you can get a scout marine which wanted to stay as a scout and not complete the space marine process. there is an ultramarine scout sargent in the codex who stayed a scout. Also, the actual rulebook does say about scout power armour.

Also i wouldn't know about space wolf scouts, i have a dislike towards them (obviously i'm a thousand Son at heart)

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Rexasure said:

Well i'm sure that you can get a scout marine which wanted to stay as a scout and not complete the space marine process. there is an ultramarine scout sargent in the codex who stayed a scout. Also, the actual rulebook does say about scout power armour.

Also i wouldn't know about space wolf scouts, i have a dislike towards them (obviously i'm a thousand Son at heart)

Space wolves don't go by the usual training regime Scout -> Devastator -> Assault -> Tactical

Their equivalent is:

Blood Claw (assault guys in power armor) -> Grey Hunter (Tactical equivalent) -> Long Fang (Devastator) OR Scout

Thus their Scouts are the most experienced guys they have.

 

As for playing in Scout armor it works okay as long as you know your role. Which is definitely not to go into crazy charges. In one mission my whole team went in Scout armor because they valued stealthy and fast approach in infiltrating the genstealer cults hideout. The one crazy charge that happened by their Blood Angel Apothecary resulted in the Apothecary going from full wounds to several points into critical IN ONE BLOW when genestealer swiped him and hit his head.

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"OUCH!"

But, yeah, no problem with the scout idear...it would be assumed that any 'scouts' seconded would be scout sergeants, not newbie initiates.  Just, as pointed out, don't forget that yer not wearing power armour!  (although, with the space wolves, that may not necessarily be the case either....been too long since i read that particular chapter book...) (yeah, i can't seem to picture a Blood Claw in anything but full-on power armour....so you may be ok with that, too.  Darned Blood Claws...gui%C3%B1o.gif)

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Blood Claws are not Space Wolves scouts.

Space Wolves scouts, as mentioned above, are usually veterans, either Long Fangs or Grey Wolves that prefer to work alone and are made scouts.

It is a small pet pevee of mine about scouts and space marines. It goes against everything we know of warfare in our time, where scouts regiments tend the be Elite or at least Veteran status because they get the hardest job there is, go behind enemy line when lightly armed to scout and sabotage. That is usually what Special Forces do but in Space marines.... they use their ROOKIES for that vital role.

I suppose it is not so vital for them, and scouting in giant power armour is probably quite silly, but still... nothing in the warhammer 40k universe makes me believe scouting is any less vital than nowadays. Yes, they can do orbital scans but they seems to be anything but precise.

Oh, and death to the Thousand Sons, Long live Leman Russ!

 

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volkmar said:

 

It is a small pet pevee of mine about scouts and space marines. It goes against everything we know of warfare in our time, where scouts regiments tend the be Elite or at least Veteran status because they get the hardest job there is, go behind enemy line when lightly armed to scout and sabotage. That is usually what Special Forces do but in Space marines.... they use their ROOKIES for that vital role.

 

 

Remeber that those "Rookies" have been undergoing intense training at a level no human could survive for over a decade since recruitment. Also, a raw recruit, pre-teen-fresh-off-the-homeworld, is generally a hardened killer and survival expert who could probably keep up with any modern special forces unit.

A Space Marine Scout is far from a green recruit. 

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One thing that came up with our guy who's currently in scout Armour.

 

Nowhere that I could find does it mention anything about photovisors or similar. This means he has no autosenses and struggles in the dark.

 

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volkmar said:

 

...

It is a small pet pevee of mine about scouts and space marines. It goes against everything we know of warfare in our time, where scouts regiments tend the be Elite or at least Veteran status because they get the hardest job there is, go behind enemy line when lightly armed to scout and sabotage. That is usually what Special Forces do but in Space marines.... they use their ROOKIES for that vital role.

I suppose it is not so vital for them, and scouting in giant power armour is probably quite silly, but still... nothing in the warhammer 40k universe makes me believe scouting is any less vital than nowadays. Yes, they can do orbital scans but they seems to be anything but precise.

...

 

 

Every Space Marine, whether Tactical, Assault or Devastator, is expected to go behind enemy line and fight while surrounded, outnumbered and alone as a standard operating procedure. Thats what they do. In this context is being a Space Marine Scout really more dangerous and demanding than taking a Drop Pod ride into middle of enemy formation and not only fight, but actually WIN without anyone coming to your support?

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Hoohaa!!  Indeed, let's not forget that while the scouts are the space marine green guys, they're elite compared to 'norms' of today or in the Imperial Guard.  You have to look at it like training...the very first step a space marine takes (i.e. scout coy) is to train at what we moderns would consider the elite level (i.e. rangers/scouts/spec.ops).  That's the very first step.  Then, once they prove themselves, they move up to the higher levels of space marine awesomeness.  Thus, each and every space marine (except Space Wolves, I guess) starts out as what we consider 'the best' and move up from there.

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I think that if a scout replaced his power armor with Deathwatch scout armor and auto-sense goggles, from rites of battle,
that it would be a fair trade off. this then gives them the advantages that they need without their regular power armor.

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Rexasure said:

Well i'm sure that you can get a scout marine which wanted to stay as a scout and not complete the space marine process. there is an ultramarine scout sargent in the codex who stayed a scout. Also, the actual rulebook does say about scout power armour.

Also i wouldn't know about space wolf scouts, i have a dislike towards them (obviously i'm a thousand Son at heart)

One thing to just throw out there, are not veteran scouts those that have completed the full implantation process? As in they could serve in full power armour in one of the other companies, but choose to train the chapter's new recruits?

The point being, that maybe we should not use the term "Deathwatch Scout," but rather "Deathwatch Veteran Scout." This also should clarify/appease those who were in a tissy about the whole "DoW2 Cyrus served in the Deathwatch but is a scout" thing.

Now, we don't have that specialization in the core book, but it maps to a tac marine, taking bolter specialization, and taking scout armour over power armour.

The only thing they don't have is a strong early game stealth skill.

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As far as I remember from reading lore on Scouts, scouts are not fully enhanced until the last few years of their training, so at the end of their training where they are about to transition to power armoured space marine they are essentially a space marine. I would imagine that no chapter would risk all the effort they have put into training and enchancing a scout by sending them to the Deathwatch without their full suite of enhancements, that just does not make sense. I would take it that if you are a space Marine who decided to stay a scout you are a FULL space marine just operating as a scout. I would say that after fully qualifying instead of taking power armour you decided to stay a scout, I always imagined that scout squads were made of not fully enhanced or fully enhanced but not fully graduated OR fully enhanced fully graduated tough nuts who decided their skills as a scout was best for the chapter. Veteran scout Seargents like Ultramarine Scout Sgt Telion or even Scout Sergents are fully enhanced scouts fully qualified for the fully armoured line infantry but again they chose to train the next wave and use their unique skill set for the benefit of the chapter.

 

So in short I would say that any scout character is a fully enhanced space marine just in scout armour

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Nuada_Obliage said:

I would say that after fully qualifying instead of taking power armour you decided to stay a scout

I personally don't see it happening like this - a new Battle Brother hasn't completed his training afterall, and still requires years, or even decades, as a Devastator, Assault Marine and Tactical Marine (studying all the ways the Astartes wage war, encompassing pretty much every weapon, vehicle, strategy and tactic their Chapter routinely employs). After that intensive apprenticeship, a process likely to take the Marine towards the end of his first century of life, then an individual Marine will probably be part of one of the Battle Companies, with greater freedoms (in the sense of self-determination, such as choosing whether to serve as a Tactical, Assault or Devastator Marine), honours and responsibilities coming over the following decades.

Returning to the Scout Companies to serve as a sergeant is, in my opinion, the kind of thing that would happen later in a Marine's career, probably after at least a century of combat experience, with the Chapter only likely to entrust such a responsibility to veterans - while Scouts are placed in a role that deliberately distances them from/allows them to avoid the heaviest fighting (by Astartes standards), they still need the experience and discipline of a warrior who has seen the many faces of war to guide them on the path to becoming full Battle Brothers.

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Oh just wondering, if you took a space marine out of his armour what size is he, I know in armour they are hulking but honestly I can't ever imagine a space marine fitting into the "Normal " category so would you still give them the hulking trait outside of armour?

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Space Marine scouts are still rather large once you take off the power armor. In the process of becoming a full fledged marine they undergo medical procedures to enhance muscle mass and general strength, get new organs added into their bodies, implants and reinforcements to the skeletal system to withstand the rigors of their armor.

These are by far not small individuals anymore.

As it stands, if you're looking at canon fiction, or purposed canon fiction. Sergeant Cyrus of the Bloodravens was in the Deathwatch after his experience fighting Tyranids. His specialty skills for stealth and demolitions were used during that time period and he joined at the request of Inquisition after his campaign against the Tyranids. He was determined to bring his special skills and those that he learned back to the Bloodravens to help train the future soldiers with that experience in mind.

I consider this information canon as anything that's put into the games has to be approved by Gamesworkshop first. So despite some debates about scouts being in the Deathwatch here there is a precedent.

I also personally disagree with the idea that the standard marine setup works for beginning a game as a scout, it lacks the long term specialty skills marines would have as scout sergeants like better shadowing (skill), concealment (skill), and improved silent movement after perfecting these skills in the field.

I'm currently working on a homebrew Specialty doc to allow my players the option of playing a dedicated scout. As it stands I'm more concerned about my group size as I'm nearly the fiction cap for a kill team of 10 members. With the most recent additions, or potential additions I should say.

 

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Nuada_Obliage said:

Oh just wondering, if you took a space marine out of his armour what size is he, I know in armour they are hulking but honestly I can't ever imagine a space marine fitting into the "Normal " category so would you still give them the hulking trait outside of armour?

No. While bigger than the average human outside their armour, they're not that much bigger - around seven feet tall, but very broad across the chest and shoulders. Most of the impression of size comes from how broad they are, rather than their height. The additional bulk of a full suit of power armour pushes them over the border between the Average size category and the Hulking size category.

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@DaedalRogue

As I was saying with Cyrus though, he is not necessarily seconded to the Deathwatch while a recruit in the scout company. And we know that the scout company does contain marines who are not recruits, but rather teachers, instructors. They mix some of the more veteran marines in to the scout company to help train the new scouts. Heck, if I recall, Cyrus can actually equip power armour in one of the games...

So in all seriousness, there is no proof that scout recruits (i.e. those that have no completed the implantation process) are seconded to the Deathwatch in all but the most extremely rare cases (as in this has not been seen before, but I certainly can't deny that it could ever happen. It would just have to be that like a scout who is the near reincarnation of a primarch or something, but for some reason doesn't play well enough with the chapter that sending them off to the DW would be a "good idea").

 

Also, the scout as recruits concept is hardly broken. It can just be considered in this game, that most marines have "gotten rusty" with their stealth skills (similar to how most don't start with pilot(personal)). These skills are not brought up to so great a level of mastery as we might think. I imagine survival, and greater acceptance into the warrior fraternity of the chapter is far more a key training point of a scout, than becoming the stealthiest guy out there.

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KommissarK said:

Also, the scout as recruits concept is hardly broken. It can just be considered in this game, that most marines have "gotten rusty" with their stealth skills (similar to how most don't start with pilot(personal)). These skills are not brought up to so great a level of mastery as we might think. I imagine survival, and greater acceptance into the warrior fraternity of the chapter is far more a key training point of a scout, than becoming the stealthiest guy out there.

I agree with this view. Combined with the attitude of the Astartes and seemingly the Imperial war machine as a whole, stealth tactis and infiltration are frowned upon and looked at as a cowards tool. I have always thought of the Astartes scout units more as foreward observers and light skirmishers rather than a force recon/commando unit.

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I can agree they're more forward observers and skirmish fighters. But discounting Scout Sergeants from admission to the Deathwatch is somewhat of a silly concept. I don't think that they'd pull in the Neophyte recruits into the Deathwatch, they are not actually Marines yet. But the Scout Sergeants, or Veteran Scout marines the ones that have received all of their implantations and chose to remain as Scouts to train or they were just good at it(Looking at your Space Wolves), these are valuable troops to consider.

I think there is value in having a stealth oriented character on the field, or a dedicated Marksman. You don't often see the Full armored space marines running around with the sniper weapons because they don't make much sense for their standard battlefield tactics.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the Deathwatch as much accepts Seconded soldiers as it does recruit valorous individuals out of Chapters. They are also willing to accept the honor-less dregs that have been cast out of their chapters or left them and wish to redeem themselves (See the Deathwatch Black Shield in Rites of Battle). These types of forces like unorthodox thinking. There is a place for kicking down every door, and blowing everything up. They do that, but having a specialist who can infiltrate, sow discord among enemy lines providing greater opportunities to their allies is an extremely valuable asset on a battlefield.

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I don't think anyone is disputing the usefulness of a Scout Sergeant or that the Deathwatch would try to recruit them. What I and I think others are trying to say is that if a Scout Sergeant is recruited he is not recruited to the Deathwatch to act in a scout role. At times he may be called upon to don scout armor, but it wouldn’t be all the time. He would bring out his seldom used power armor, paint it black, and return to his traditional role, the majority of which are probably tactical marines. 

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ItsUncertainWho said:

I don't think anyone is disputing the usefulness of a Scout Sergeant or that the Deathwatch would try to recruit them. What I and I think others are trying to say is that if a Scout Sergeant is recruited he is not recruited to the Deathwatch to act in a scout role. At times he may be called upon to don scout armor, but it wouldn’t be all the time. He would bring out his seldom used power armor, paint it black, and return to his traditional role, the majority of which are probably tactical marines. 

I don't think it'd be all that common, actually - the greatest value of a veteran Scout Sergeant is in his ability to pass on hard-won experience to the next generation of Space Marines. Indeed, I imagine that there are quite a few Scout Sergeants serving in various Astartes Chapters who have Deathwatch experience, having served a Vigil long before becoming instructors, with their time in a Kill-Team giving them a far broader appreciation for small unit tactics, unorthodox strategies and a wide range of operations and enemies... upon returning to their Chapter, those experiences make many of those Battle Brothers (particularly those with leadership experience) extremely useful as leaders and instructors for Scouts, if they choose to take on such a responsibility. .

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