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Casba69

Rule clarifaction on using pistols in melee

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Well i would require the the on parrying to have Deflect shot, since when you can parry a bullet from a musket you know enough about shooting and trajetory and have the reflexses to to intercept a gun being pointed and you within your meele range.

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Mark It Zero said:

 

 

Where do you see an actual rule that states you may only make single shots in melee?  Unfortunately there is no such rule published anywhere that I can find and if it ever appeared on the old forums it is lost to time for now.  Unfortunately there's no basis for this argument without it.

I'd have to say that physical size is what stops you from using a las carbine or shotgun in melee.  It's much easier for your opponent to get inside your firing arc, making it impossible for you to get the business end or your weapon actually pointed at them.  Not so easy with a pistol sized weapon.

 

I think thats the exact point that we are arguing.  I know that I've been asking for a long time where it says in the rules that there is no full-auto in melee with a pistol because people have been quoting it as RAW on these forums.  As it is not RAW, now we are arguing about how realistic it is,  which doesn't make sense because 40k is all about things that are not "real"

 

I agree using a shotgun or carbine in melee wouldn't be easy, but it can be done.  I was trained how to do so in my military service, so while I wouldn't say everyone would automatically be qualified to use them in melee, I think a talent could be created to allow it.

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Emprah_Horus said:

I agree using a shotgun or carbine in melee wouldn't be easy, but it can be done.  I was trained how to do so in my military service, so while I wouldn't say everyone would automatically be qualified to use them in melee, I think a talent could be created to allow it.

I could see a talent where you shove back your opponent with your weapon and then fire a shot in close proximity.  I seem to remember seeing that maneuver in movies all the time.

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Actually, it occurs to me that a good compromise exists from the Inquisitor's Handbook about parrying pistols - if you treat all pistols as having the Fast quality (-20 penalty to anybody Parrying the weapon), that should handle any difficulty people perceive in Parrying a pistol.

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Pneumonica said:

Actually, it occurs to me that a good compromise exists from the Inquisitor's Handbook about parrying pistols - if you treat all pistols as having the Fast quality (-20 penalty to anybody Parrying the weapon), that should handle any difficulty people perceive in Parrying a pistol.

The act of firing a gun is only as fast as the hand holding it.  Much the same can be said about a sword, axe or brick.  The only argument that I've seen against "parrying" pistols in melee is the comment that if you take the time to knock away the gun, why not just strike with your weapon.  This is of course silly at best, because you can ask the same question of a martial artist who blocks a kick or a swordsman who deflects a stab?  Why not just strike rather than parry?  Probably because not getting hit is an agreeable outcome which can quickly and easily be followed by a strike of your own.

In the end sometimes it's faster to quickly slap away a strike, stab, or pistol rather than mount an offense.  Swinging a sword requires more time and effort in many cases than just bringing your blade up to deflect a strike.  Throwing a punch takes more effort than bringing your forearm up to block a strike.  Why would it be any different for a combatant to deflect a gunman's weapon arm?  The same applies for any defensive manuever in a melee range fight.

The reason I've taken to using quotes when I use the word parry is that we're not talking about deflecting bullets here, we're talking about disrupting a gunman's shot by applying a quick defensive effort to his weapon arm or even the weapon itself.  Hopefully following the "parried" shot, we will find an opening which allows us to strike at an opponent's vitals while not taking a gunshot to the stomach in the process.  Sounds like a win win scenario to me.

I'm not even talking about the insane Gun-Fu depicted in movies like Equilibrium, although that's an extreme example of what I'm getting at.

Example:

A man walks into the room and bumps into me, suddenly without warning he reaches for a pistol at his hip and clearly intends to fire it at me.  Thanks to my close proximity, while I don't have time to lay a solid punch to his throat just yet, I can shove, grab at, kick or knee his gun hand and give myself time to strike at an opening once I'm safely out of the line of fire.  It is after all, hard to shoot someone when you can't get the barrel pointed in their general direction.

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I generally agree (indeed, that's why I use the capital Parry - it's a game term, not a real world term).  What a lot of people don't realize is that, unlike in the movies, a lot of successful parries don't actually connect with anything.  They are area denial techniques, forcing someone to "move it or lose it".  In game terms, a "feint" as a martial artist or swordsman knows it is actually a Parry.

I'm saying give them the Fast quality because, on looking at it, it is quite possible to shoot someone from more positions than you can stab them.  You can keep the weapon a bit further away from your foe and still be able to strike them with it.  This makes reaching the weapon to divert it a bit more difficult.  In this regard, I can see what the posters opting for a special Talent to Parry pistol attacks in melee are thinking about.  Giving all pistols the Fast trait imposes a -20 penalty to attempts made to Parry attacks by the weapon (it doesn't neccessarily mean the weapon is actually particularly swift).  Thus, anyone engaged with someone who's using a pistol will suffer a -20 penalty to Parry ranged attacks by the pistoleer.

This, of course, takes an additional step away from RAW, but it is a nice compromise - allowing for the harshness of reality, and still giving a nod to cinematics.

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Casba69 said:

As I read the book the lines are never too clear on how to work with pistols in close quarter combat can they be fired at all or be only used as a club?     Now I may be new to the 40k warhammer but I am not new to role playing since I have played Rifts, D&D all the way through and still play 4.0 and some 3.0 from time to time.  You guys may have had the answers to this question in version 1 for all i know but it just seems to be a little unclear in version 3 so far for me. 

 

Think of the movies where the bad guy pulls a pistol and gets ready to shoot the good guy, only the good guy lunges at him and tries to wrestle the gun away. You know the part where they are struggling and the gun goes off and one of them gets shot... think of it kinda like that.

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I think the ‘parry pistol’ argument is suffering from category error in that the essence of the action is poorly defined. One should never parry a pistol shot. It’s already been fired, the bullet has left the gun and your options are limited to dodge or not to dodge.

From what I am reading above; the action is being described as:

1. Foe pulls gun and begins to take aim
2. Hero jumps in close to the foe and physically prevents them from aiming the gun.

As such, this isn’t parrying an attack; it’s preventing an attack. We have entered the realm of grappling. Grappling is defined as an unarmed attack that seeks to immobilize the target. The target of a successful grapple can only grapple in return; no shooting, no dodging, no parrying, no melee attacks, etc, etc. So you have something like this:

1. Foe pulls gun and begins to take aim.
2. Hero jumps in close and ‘blocks the aim’ by a successful grapple.

At some point in time, one of the two grappling combatants will choose to 'break grapple as a free action' and take their regular combat moves...

There, no need to bend the rules or start inventing new skills for players to worry over.
 

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Aethilgar said:

 

I think the ‘parry pistol’ argument is suffering from category error in that the essence of the action is poorly defined. One should never parry a pistol shot. It’s already been fired, the bullet has left the gun and your options are limited to dodge or not to dodge.

From what I am reading above; the action is being described as:

1. Foe pulls gun and begins to take aim
2. Hero jumps in close to the foe and physically prevents them from aiming the gun.

As such, this isn’t parrying an attack; it’s preventing an attack. We have entered the realm of grappling. Grappling is defined as an unarmed attack that seeks to immobilize the target. The target of a successful grapple can only grapple in return; no shooting, no dodging, no parrying, no melee attacks, etc, etc. So you have something like this:

1. Foe pulls gun and begins to take aim.
2. Hero jumps in close and ‘blocks the aim’ by a successful grapple.

At some point in time, one of the two grappling combatants will choose to 'break grapple as a free action' and take their regular combat moves...

There, no need to bend the rules or start inventing new skills for players to worry over.
 

 

 

EDIT: Sort of.  Either you can place your body "behind" their firing arc by moving in close and keeping them from aiming at you, or you knock away the gun sending the shot wide before it's fired.  Grappling won't happen until you get your own turn and can attempt to grapple.

What I'm personally talking about is something reflexive/defensive that a combatant can do (during his opponent's turn!) to keep from being shot when his enemy is within arm or weapon reach.

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And yet, that isn't what we're describing at all.  Parrying an attack is preventing an attack.  You might as well replace the entire Parry mechanic with the Grappling rules.

You can't "grapple" with a stick, and yet you can use a stick to move the weapon in another direction before it can fire.  This is especially important for weapons or character abilities that offer bonuses to parry attacks.  Also, if you've successfully grabbed someone's firearm, there are few reasons why you should release control over that weapon.  The proposed rules change is an extremely simple rule that's easily implemented, maps well to reality and canon, and unlike using Grapple to simulate a Parry this rules set actually works (you can Parry ranged attacks if you are engaged with the person making the ranged attack at the time the attack is made).

There, no need to uselessly overcomplicate gameplay or utilize rules sets that have nothing to do with what's actually being done.

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People are just taking the use of the word "parry" too literally in this discussion.  All I'm saying is a combatant should have other defensive options if his opponent tries to shoot him while engaged in close combat.  Knocking away the firearm to send the shot wide is kind of like a parry, hence people's use of the term.  I'm not talking about deflecting bullets.  That's an entirely different discussion. happy.gif

Grapple is different in that it's not a reflexive option.  You would have to wait your turn to actually begin wrestling with your enemy for control of the weapon.  That's not stopping you from describing the "parry" as you attempting to grab your opponent's arm and point the gun away from you.  You just won't have a solid grip on them until you actually have your turn and make the proper grapple rolls.

So in short, "parry" may be a bad choice of word.  Any suggestions on an alternative or can we just use "parry" with bold quotes and understand it's a similar action even though there are obvious and subtle differences.

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I would consider knocking a person's gun out of the way in close combat as an interrupt. You would have to beat the person in an agility test, make a WS test called shot to the arm. I would think you'd have to have a 1/2 action delayed for this.

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Oan Mkoll said:

I would consider knocking a person's gun out of the way in close combat as an interrupt. You would have to beat the person in an agility test, make a WS test called shot to the arm. I would think you'd have to have a 1/2 action delayed for this.

 

Lets not forget you can also dodge, so its not that there is no way to mitigate a pistol shot in melee

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Oan Mkoll said:

Also, I would consider a pistol used for a melee attack an improvised weapon.

 

Actually, I think using the stats for Brass Knuckles would suit a pistol used as a melee weapon better. Using a Basic weapon such as a rifle to beat someone about the head and shoulders is considered to be Improvised and it has a lot more weight behind it then a pistol. but that would just be my call.

 

On the whole Parrying issue, if knocking someone's gun away from your body before they can get their shot off is considered to be an interrupt action, then isn't deflecting someone's blade before it pierces your jiggly pink flesh also an interrupt? After all, you interrupted the swordsmen's attempt to slice you open.

When you dodge a gunshot, you are not dodging the bullet (such is a nearly impossible feat and completely impossible with Las weapons unless the target can move faster then the speed of light). When you dodge a gunshot, you are getting out from in front of the barrel before the gunman can pull the trigger in the first place. If you can move your whole body before a gunman can pull the trigger, then why can't you just move a part of your body, say your arm, to knock his gun aside before he pulls that trigger?

 

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Ok wow...  no one can see the 800 pound gorrilla?

To all of those who are like, my super ninja leet martial arts skills will let me parry a pistol attack.  To all who say, I should be able to push the gun aside before the trigger is pulled.....  

<SCREAM>THAT IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE RULES</SCREAM>  

pant .. pant ...  ok I will explain it.

Why do you think you dont get the +30 bonus when firing a pistol in melee? Could it be that it is assumed your oppenent is already activly trying to stop you from pointing your gun at him?  Geee...  I wonder....   

A man sized target is pretty easy to hit at 2 feet...  Except your opponent is already trying to stop you from getting a beed on him.  It makes no sense whatsoever for this to be an actual action/reaction..  unless of course during the flow of melee combat you can pick op on the exact instant when your opponent with the pistol is going to move his finger a half centimeter. 

What most people have descriped as an example of parrying a pistol in combat is either pure hollywood or is actually a disarm (one is worthless the other is not a parry).

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So you don't get the +30 bonus?  Neither does someone with an axe, but you can still parry the axe.  What's your point, other than to prove you know about as much about the rules as everybody else on this thread?

Simply put, it isn't pure Hollywood - it's basic self defense. You never, ever begin a disarm maneuver before the weapon is in a neutral direction, and in many cases you neutralize the attacker before taking the weapon (you still take the weapon in case your attacker comes to). The first part of any firearm disarm is a block/parry action, usually followed by a strike or series of strikes, and concluded with a grapple/disarm.

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Pneumonica said:

 

So you don't get the +30 bonus?  Neither does someone with an axe, but you can still parry the axe.  What's your point, other than to prove you know about as much about the rules as everybody else on this thread?

Simply put, it isn't pure Hollywood - it's basic self defense. You never, ever begin a disarm maneuver before the weapon is in a neutral direction, and in many cases you neutralize the attacker before taking the weapon (you still take the weapon in case your attacker comes to). The first part of any firearm disarm is a block/parry action, usually followed by a strike or series of strikes, and concluded with a grapple/disarm.

 

 

You are comparing a pull of a trigger with a swing of an axe?  ....  really?  Size of motion, momentum, speed, visibility, timing, etc all seem the same to you?  Comparing 2 melee weapons can be done (inaccuracies due to different melee weapons can be excused for game mechanics) but between a pistol and a sword????  wow....

You don't get a +30 because the ability to hit a target with a melee weapon is not a test of can I swing it through the space my opponent occupies (a attack with a firearm is trying to put a bullet through that space) it is a check to see if you can get it past your opponents efforts to stop you from doing just that. 

Your BS is a measure of how good you are of putting bullets (ranged attacks) through the space your opponent occupies.

Your WS is a measure of how good you are at actually landing a blow past your opponets efforts to stop you.

Edit: and in regards to pure Hollywood..   Yes and no..  we are talking about 2 different things here I think.  You are correct about how you knock a pistol aside and whatnot.  But what I was saying (or trying to) was that those actions are already accounted for in the rules..  You don't get the +30 for point blank.  Why not? Because of exactly what you said.  Do everything you can to make sure the pistol is not pointed at you.  In other words you don't specifically parry the attack rather whatever you do you try and make sure the gun is not pointed at your tender flesh.  Effectively your effort get you a -30 on the pistol wielders role.

The whole Hollywood thing comes into play as how people were apparently envisioning you use a pistol up close.  As well as the movie clip that had it link posted. (many times during the fight one or the other would move his gun across the line of the others body to parry the others pistol out wide....  ..  looks neat but should have just pulled the trigger instead)

 

 

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Ilsoth, I can concede that you don't get the +30 to BS with a pistol in melee because your target is doing everything in his or her power to keep it from being pointed at him or her. That makes perfect sense. But if that's what keeps them from parrying a pistol, why do they still get to dodge?

 

If they can't parry because they are already knocking the gun aside and doing everything in their power not to get hit, why do they still get to dodge? After all, they are already moving around trying not to be hit. By your argument, not getting a +30 the gunman's BS should also count as the victims dodge. Saying that the victim cant parry because they can't tell the instant you pull the trigger likewise fails.

If they can't parry because they don't know right when that trigger will be pulled and, a such, wouldn't have the time to parry means that no one can ever doge a gunshot because they will never know when that trigger will be pulled.

 

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Graver said:

 

Ilsoth, I can concede that you don't get the +30 to BS with a pistol in melee because your target is doing everything in his or her power to keep it from being pointed at him or her. That makes perfect sense. But if that's what keeps them from parrying a pistol, why do they still get to dodge?

 

If they can't parry because they are already knocking the gun aside and doing everything in their power not to get hit, why do they still get to dodge? After all, they are already moving around trying not to be hit. By your argument, not getting a +30 the gunman's BS should also count as the victims dodge. Saying that the victim cant parry because they can't tell the instant you pull the trigger likewise fails.

If they can't parry because they don't know right when that trigger will be pulled and, a such, wouldn't have the time to parry means that no one can ever doge a gunshot because they will never know when that trigger will be pulled.

 

Same reason you can parry a melee attack when it is assumed you are already trying to stop him from hitting you.  A dodge or parry is simply an extra special effort made by the character against an attack.  They could be said to represent the characters focus, concentration, and skill at/on dodging and parrying.   Or that is the normal rpg explanation.

A dodge of bullet or faster attacks is one of those things that shows up in most games and really does not make any sense.  As actually sidestepping a bullet or laser blast would require the individual to move so fast that the G-Forces on his body would kill him.  It is usually explained away as moving before the person pulls the trigger.  ... 

I don't actually like this.  It is done so that there is more player choice and interaction in battles (do I dodge this attack or the next one, etc). A more realistic way to portray it would be to have an evasion skill which reduced your enemies chance to hit you with a ranged attack.  It would represent your ability you move quickly and vary speed and direction slightly to throw off their aim.  To move crouched to present a smaller target, etc.  For example roll your evasion skill and  success would reduce all enemy accuracy by X% per degree of success. 

In short I agree with you, the concept of dodging a bullet is silly.  It is allowed for gameplay purposes. 

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Interesting this must mean you get bonus for outnumbering you opponent in melee as it gets so much more difficult to avoid all the guns/axes pointing and trying to hit you.

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llsoth said:

You are comparing a pull of a trigger with a swing of an axe?  ....  really?  Size of motion, momentum, speed, visibility, timing, etc all seem the same to you?  Comparing 2 melee weapons can be done (inaccuracies due to different melee weapons can be excused for game mechanics) but between a pistol and a sword????  wow....

Wait - it's perfectly acceptible to you the notion that whips, flails, polearms, stilettos, monoblades, axes, chainswords, lightsabers, and baseball bats are all equally comperable, but pistols in close quarters aren't?  Really????  Wow...

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No need for screaming fits. lengua.gif

Assuming they've used their Dodge for the round.  Allowing melee to be parried but not allowing a similar defense to pistol attacks (in melee range) makes it generally easier to shoot someone in melee range than it is to stab them.  I don't like this so I propose a way to hopefully prevent being shot by making a parry roll to knock away the gun and send the shot wide.

Let's say I'm in combat and I have two options:

Stab: +0 default chance to hit, opponent may dodge, opponent may parry.

Shoot:  +0 default chance to hit, opponent may dodge, opponent may not parry.

Um, unless my BS and WS are vastly different I'll take the attack that doesn't offer my opponent any extra defense option.


Wait - it's perfectly acceptible to you the notion that whips, flails, polearms, stilettos, monoblades, axes, chainswords, lightsabers, and baseball bats are all equally comperable, but pistols in close quarters aren't? Really???? Wow...

This is also a very important point.  This system does not take into account individual weapon speed.  Unless we house rule the system to take weapon speed into account, there is no support for such arguments.

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Pneumonica said:

 

llsoth said:

 

You are comparing a pull of a trigger with a swing of an axe?  ....  really?  Size of motion, momentum, speed, visibility, timing, etc all seem the same to you?  Comparing 2 melee weapons can be done (inaccuracies due to different melee weapons can be excused for game mechanics) but between a pistol and a sword????  wow....

 

 

Wait - it's perfectly acceptible to you the notion that whips, flails, polearms, stilettos, monoblades, axes, chainswords, lightsabers, and baseball bats are all equally comperable, but pistols in close quarters aren't?  Really????  Wow...

 

 

I was about to come back with a sarcastic comment but I will try a different track and answer seriously.  (I think you may be yanking my chain a bit here, but it is hard to tell sometimes on the message boards)

In my post I said "(inaccuracies due to different melee weapons can be excused for game mechanics)" I am sorry if this is unclear I will expand on it.

In that I am acknowledging that different melee weapon types would have differing effects in melee in regards to hitting and parrying.  But that due to the amazing complexity that would result this is forgone in favor of more simplicity.  To do it correctly you would not only need to model many additional stats for each weapon you would need to account for weapon X vs weapon Y cases.  A rapier vs a maul is different from a rapier vs a katana etc.  In other words yes I know not all melee weapons are the same but that due to game mechanics they are treated in a similar fashion as the alternative is mind boggling complexity.

When I said "but between a pistol and a sword????  wow...."  I was saying that yes a pistol is in no way comparable to any melee weapon.  You defend against it in a different manner, you attack with it in a different manner, you do not need to make contact with your enemy with it, it does not need to build up momentum,  the speed with which you can make an attack is vastly different (not just talking about bullet speed but also moving a finger 1/2 centimeter), etc. 

There are certain things in common among all melee weapons, must make contact with the enemy, enough force must be built up through muscle power/leverage/momentum/etc to actually damage the enemy, etc that are completely lacking with regards to pistols.

Edit: Mark it Zero well actually I would take a gun to a knife fight...  every day of the week and about a bajillion times on sunday.   That having been said the concept of dispatching heretics with a chainsword is enticing.  Especially if you can convince your gm to let you mono it :)  (you should be able to have the "teeth" monoed) So I understand the desire to give melee combat parity with ranged combat. It is just not very realistic.

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llsoth said:

Edit: Mark it Zero well actually I would take a gun to a knife fight...  every day of the week and about a bajillion times on sunday.   That having been said the concept of dispatching heretics with a chainsword is enticing.  Especially if you can convince your gm to let you mono it :)  (you should be able to have the "teeth" monoed) So I understand the desire to give melee combat parity with ranged combat. It is just not very realistic.

I don't want realism.  I want players to feel just as motivated to shred things with chainsaw bladed swords and psychic light sabers as they do their hand cannons.  Given the harsh nature of success vs. failure in this game I imagine even the least "power gamer" player would bring a pistol to a knife fight because as it stands the odds of success are just too much better IMO.

Also it's really no surprise you would take a gun to a knife fight.  However I'd imagine your biggest reason has nothing to do with accuracy and chance of success but rather the fact that a bullet does incredible damage when compared to a knife.

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