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Casba69

Rule clarifaction on using pistols in melee

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As I read the book the lines are never too clear on how to work with pistols in close quarter combat can they be fired at all or be only used as a club?     Now I may be new to the 40k warhammer but I am not new to role playing since I have played Rifts, D&D all the way through and still play 4.0 and some 3.0 from time to time.  You guys may have had the answers to this question in version 1 for all i know but it just seems to be a little unclear in version 3 so far for me. 

And when I get a chance I try to go online and play mostly Neverwinter Nights.

 

Casba69

 

The Dwarf that loves to smash big hairy toes.......

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This is needlessly becoming something of a broken record.

By the book:

They're used to shoot your opponent in close combat.

No semi-auto. No full-auto. Single shots only. One shot.

No range modifiers. No +30 point blank bonus. No -20 firing a weapon into melee combat penalty. Just a base Ballistic Skill.

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Headhanger said:

This is needlessly becoming something of a broken record.

By the book:

They're used to shoot your opponent in close combat.

No semi-auto. No full-auto. Single shots only. One shot.

No range modifiers. No +30 point blank bonus. No -20 firing a weapon into melee combat penalty. Just a base Ballistic Skill.

We need a TShirt that says "Pistols in Melee" on the front and "No modifiers, single shot only." on the back. :D

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Snidesworth said:

Another question (which I hope hasn't come up before); can you perform anything other than a standard attack with a pistol? Exampls being All Out Attack, Charge, Guarded Attack and so on.

 

I don't see why not.

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Headhanger said:

This is needlessly becoming something of a broken record.

By the book:

They're used to shoot your opponent in close combat.

No semi-auto. No full-auto. Single shots only. One shot.

No range modifiers. No +30 point blank bonus. No -20 firing a weapon into melee combat penalty. Just a base Ballistic Skill.

 

I've asked this before as well, and I get the same response,  but can someone please point out the page in the book this is on?  I can't seem to find the reference that says single shot only.

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Snidesworth said:

Another question (which I hope hasn't come up before); can you perform anything other than a standard attack with a pistol? Exampls being All Out Attack, Charge, Guarded Attack and so on.

Assuming you are using it as a club and not shooting with it, yes.

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Emprah_Horus said:

Headhanger said:

 

This is needlessly becoming something of a broken record.

By the book:

They're used to shoot your opponent in close combat.

No semi-auto. No full-auto. Single shots only. One shot.

No range modifiers. No +30 point blank bonus. No -20 firing a weapon into melee combat penalty. Just a base Ballistic Skill.

 

 

 

I've asked this before as well, and I get the same response,  but can someone please point out the page in the book this is on?  I can't seem to find the reference that says single shot only.

 

Me neither.  Where's the ref for single shot only?

The errata does clarify things a little (p12) new.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/dark-heresy/pdf/darkheresy-errata-v2.0.pdf but there's still ambiguity there.

Lets see;

**They're used to shoot your opponent in close combat.** 

OK.  Pistols are the only ranged weapons that can be used in melee.  They use BS and still count as ranged weapons so can't use melee weapon talents etc.  (Errata p12).  That said there doesn't appear to be anything stopping you using ranged talents like Crack Shot, Two weapon wielder, Dual Shot, etc. ( ? preocupado.gif )

**No semi-auto. No full-auto. Single shots only. One shot.**

Where's the reference for this?  I've scoured the core book and the errata and can't find anything about not using semi- or full-auto.  Where does it say you can't unload a 10-shot burst from your autopistol?

**No range modifiers. No +30 point blank bonus. No -20 firing a weapon into melee combat penalty. Just a base Ballistic Skill.**

Point blank (p199) and errata (p12) makes it clear you don't get the +30BS for shooting at a target you're in melee with.  Where is it stated you don't get the -20BS shooting into melee?   I'm not doubting it, i just can't find the reference for it.

 

On a side note, the Errata is confusing when dealing with Swift Attack.

It says that pistols in melee cannot use 'melee' talents.  Swift Attack is a melee talent.  Yet under tha clarifications it says Swift attak allows you to attack with a melee weapon and a pistol as one attack.  preocupado.gif

So does the character get to attack one target with his power sword and shoot at another target, or does it allow the power sword and pistol to attack the same close combat opponent?  If the latter than this contradicts the clarification that pistols cannot benefit from melee tanletns doesn't it?

Confusing...

 

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The way I understand it is that when you fire a ranged weapon in melee combat you get no modifiers for range, can only fire one shot and can't apply any melee specific talents.  I don't however see any reason you can't use lightning attack or swift attack and still recieve your one "off-hand" pistol attack in addition to your swift melee attacks.

From reading those talents it seems clear to me that the talent itself is only boosting your number of attacks with your melee weapon but that does not override your ability to make an off-hand attack with a pistol if you have one in hand.  Penalties for duel-weilding would still of course apply.

I can easily picture a combatant slashing quickly with their knife a couple of times, and then squeezing off a quick shot from the handgun they're carrying as well.

Errata Quote: 

"If you have Swift Attack and Two Weapon Wielder
(Ballistic and Melee), and are armed with a pistol and
a melee weapon, you can, as a Full Action, make a
single attack with the pistol and two attacks with the
melee weapon."

Now you just have to sort out getting all the talents which make this possible. happy.gif

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Is there a secret underground movement of people who try to find problems with RPG rules? Don't omit common sense! I don't mean to sound insulting or arrogant but it looks crystal clear to me.

Luddite said:

**They're used to shoot your opponent in close combat.** 

 

OK.  Pistols are the only ranged weapons that can be used in melee.  They use BS and still count as ranged weapons so can't use melee weapon talents etc.  (Errata p12).  That said there doesn't appear to be anything stopping you using ranged talents like Crack Shot, Two weapon wielder, Dual Shot, etc. ( ? preocupado.gif )

 

I don't have my book with me right now.bostezo.gif

Luddite said:

**No semi-auto. No full-auto. Single shots only. One shot.**

 

Where's the reference for this? I've scoured the core book and the errata and can't find anything about not using semi- or full-auto. Where does it say you can't unload a 10-shot burst from your autopistol?

 

Attack in close combat - half action. Full/Semi Auto - full action.

You can attack with a pistol in close combat as a half action. Full/semi auto doesn't suddenly become a half action instead of a full action because you're toe-to-toe with some stimmed-up ganger wielding a monkey wrench. Maybe I'll quote what I can find when I get home.

Luddite said:

**No range modifiers. No +30 point blank bonus. No -20 firing a weapon into melee combat penalty. Just a base Ballistic Skill.**

 

Point blank (p199) and errata (p12) makes it clear you don't get the +30BS for shooting at a target you're in melee with. Where is it stated you don't get the -20BS shooting into melee? I'm not doubting it, i just can't find the reference for it.

 

Because you're not shooting into melee. You're in melee and you're attacking with a pistol. You're not out of melee shooting into melee. The only ranged weapons you can use in melee are pistols and they are covered by the rules we're debating. If you were standing a few metres away and shot at two mutants who were wrestling with each other over a scrap of rat meat, then you'd get the -20BS penalty.

Luddite said:

On a side note, the Errata is confusing when dealing with Swift Attack.

 

It says that pistols in melee cannot use 'melee' talents. Swift Attack is a melee talent. Yet under tha clarifications it says Swift attak allows you to attack with a melee weapon and a pistol as one attack.

So does the character get to attack one target with his power sword and shoot at another target, or does it allow the power sword and pistol to attack the same close combat opponent? If the latter than this contradicts the clarification that pistols cannot benefit from melee tanletns doesn't it?

Confusing...

 

I think  Mark It Zero handled this pretty well. The errata covers this.

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"Attack in close combat - half action. Full/Semi Auto - full action.

 

You can attack with a pistol in close combat as a half action. Full/semi auto doesn't suddenly become a half action instead of a full action because you're toe-to-toe with some stimmed-up ganger wielding a monkey wrench. Maybe I'll quote what I can find when I get home."

_________________________

Actually, it is An attack with a melee weapon is a Half Action. An attack with a ranged weapon is a Half Action for a single shot, and a Full Action for a semi-auto or fullauto burst. 

In melee combat, the only ranged weapons you can use are pistols. Pistols used in melee still use
Ballistic Skill, still count as ranged weapons, and cannot benefit from any talents that are specifically
associated with melee weapons or melee attacks.

Now I know I have seen somewhere that it was stated pistols can only be fired single shot in melee now, but despite the replies, no one has been able to link where it was stated. It is not in the v2.0 errata, so where did it come from?

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As stated by another poster in another thread, it's quite possible that the "single shot only in melee" was a ruling on the very first DH boards and is now lost to time.  Not to say I'm unhappy, it doesn't make much sense when you think about it.  I shouldn't have to flip the firing mode selector switch because you're too close to me. :)

Anyway, I think the errata sums it up nicely and even has seperate paragraphs to handle certain talents which seem to be at the root of much confusion.  We just have to avoid the "single shot in melee" rule until something concrete comes around.

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The descriptions for Full Auto Burst and Semi Auto Burst both refer to "ranged attacks"

"If the ranged attack is successful..."

But maybe that's not enough.

Next you'll be suggesting Suppressing Fire in melee.

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In melee combat, the only ranged weapons you can use are pistols. Pistols used in melee still use
Ballistic Skill, still count as ranged weapons, and cannot benefit from any talents that are specifically
associated with melee weapons or melee attacks.

Headhanger said:

The descriptions for Full Auto Burst and Semi Auto Burst both refer to "ranged attacks"

"If the ranged attack is successful..."

But maybe that's not enough.

Next you'll be suggesting Suppressing Fire in melee.

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Yeah, it's clearly stated that pistols in melee still count as a ranged attack.

Headhanger said:

 

Next you'll be suggesting Suppressing Fire in melee.

 

 

Ok, hear me out: :D

Why not?  The prospect of getting lead sprayed in your general direction is scary no matter how close you get to the source.  It's all about context though, if you suddenly find yourself with the drop on an enemy and fire a burst of lead into their belly at melee range, they probably don't even have time to acknowledge the incoming gunfire lunch let alone run for cover in fear for their life.  There will be no pinning them down with gunfire, you'll be pinning their entrails with bullets.

However give the enemy a chance to see the danger coming and it would take a lot of combat drug/chaos induced frenzy to keep them from scrambling for cover.

I'm not saying I want this to be an accepted regular tactic but sometimes context dictates flexibility.

EXAMPLE:

A security guard armed with a drawn machine pistol rounds a corner only to find himself face to face with an armed intruder and a very sharp sword.  Does he a) switch to single fire and take a pot shot at the target, b) squeeze the trigger and dump ammo for dear life and hopefully intimidate the intruder or worse?

Granted this is not a situation that comes up often but who knows right?

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Okay, how do people handle PARRYING with or against a pistol used in melee combat?

Can one parry with a pistol? I assume that it would count as an improvised weapon of sorts. Heh, I can't imagine that one parries with a bullet.

On the other end, can one parry a pistol attack? I'd imagine yes, since one could potentially slam the guy's arm away as they line up a shot so close up.

gran_risa.gif

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Pistols in melee count in any which way as a ranged attack, it's just happening in melee, so by strict reading of the rules, you cannot parry or parry with the pistol (unless it's one of the pistol-swords and then you're still parrying with the sword, not the pistol *G*).

I suppose that if we get a pistol that's been specially reinforced so that it can be used as a club, you could parry with it as club.

Necrozius said:

Okay, how do people handle PARRYING with or against a pistol used in melee combat?

Can one parry with a pistol? I assume that it would count as an improvised weapon of sorts. Heh, I can't imagine that one parries with a bullet.

On the other end, can one parry a pistol attack? I'd imagine yes, since one could potentially slam the guy's arm away as they line up a shot so close up.

gran_risa.gif

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I'd allow you to parry with a pistol but definitely risk damaging the weapon severely.  I'd also let a combatant "parry" a pistol being fired at them, in essence slapping away the barrel in time to send the shot wide.  Such are the risks of bringing a gun to a knife fight.

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Mark It Zero said:

I'd allow you to parry with a pistol but definitely risk damaging the weapon severely.  I'd also let a combatant "parry" a pistol being fired at them, in essence slapping away the barrel in time to send the shot wide.  Such are the risks of bringing a gun to a knife fight.

Exactly. I'm positive that I've seen that kind of thing in movies once or twice (slapping a guy's gun-arm away as the shot goes off). It's cinematic and fun to picture in your head, so why not?

As for parrying WITH a pistol: someone in the old forum came up with a neat little system that took a weapon's quality and reliability in mind. Ie, a weapon became unreliable after parrying with it, which lasted until it was repaired (using Tech-Use, I guess).

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Lightbringer said:
Is there a secret underground movement of people who try to find problems with RPG rules?

 

 

No. This rule seems to be problematic and contradictory don’t you think? Therefore, would you say its worth discussing to try and gain some clarity on it?

 

Headhanger said:
You can attack with a pistol in close combat as a half action. Full/semi auto doesn't suddenly become a half action instead of a full action because you're toe-to-toe with some stimmed-up ganger wielding a monkey wrench. Maybe I'll quote what I can find when I get home.

 

That reference would be greatly appreciated! Where does it say using a pistol in melee is limited to a half action only?

 

Lightbringer said:
The descriptions for Full Auto Burst and Semi Auto Burst both refer to "ranged attacks"
"If the ranged attack is successful..."
But maybe that's not enough.
Next you'll be suggesting Suppressing Fire in melee.

 

OK, but p195 Ranged Attacks states;

‘You cannot make ranged attacks whilst engaged in melee, unless you are armed with a ranged weapon that is classed as a pistol’.

So even in melee, the pistol counts as a ranged attack.  Apparently.  And since the errata clarifies that melee talents don’t apply and doesn’t preclude ranged talents, I can’t see why semi- and full-auto fire isn’t possible

OK. What about aiming. Can you be in melee and aim (1/2 action) then shoot the pistol (1/2 action) while in melee? I see no reason why not.


Hmm…confusing. And I’d like it not to be, as I need to implement this.  serio.gif

 

Here’s what I think about it from piecing together the rules so far…

  1. Pistols can be used in melee, using Ballistic Skill. They do not benefit from +30 Point Blank range bonus.
  2. They count as ranged weapons and make ranged attacks while in melee, thus cannot benefit from melee talents (but can benefit from ranged talents).
  3. A pistol can make a single shot in melee as a half action. This can be combined with other half actions (move, aim, etc.) as normal.
  4. A pistol can make a semi-auto or full-auto attack in melee as a full action.
  5. With appropriate two-weapon wielder talents, two pistols can be used in melee, subject to rules 1-4 above, as a full action. Each pistol fires single shot.
  6. With appropriate two-weapon wielder talents, a pistol and a melee weapon can be used in melee, subject to rules 1-4 above, as a full action. The pistol fires single shot.

Does that make sense?

preocupado.gif
 

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Luddite said:

Here’s what I think about it from piecing together the rules so far…

  1. Pistols can be used in melee, using Ballistic Skill. They do not benefit from +30 Point Blank range bonus.
  2. They count as ranged weapons and make ranged attacks while in melee, thus cannot benefit from melee talents (but can benefit from ranged talents).
  3. A pistol can make a single shot in melee as a half action. This can be combined with other half actions (move, aim, etc.) as normal.
  4. A pistol can make a semi-auto or full-auto attack in melee as a full action.
  5. With appropriate two-weapon wielder talents, two pistols can be used in melee, subject to rules 1-4 above, as a full action. Each pistol fires single shot.
  6. With appropriate two-weapon wielder talents, a pistol and a melee weapon can be used in melee, subject to rules 1-4 above, as a full action. The pistol fires single shot.

Does that make sense?

preocupado.gif
 

 

That is pretty much it, as written in main rules and Errata. Point 4 is not direct quote from either source but it never says that you cannot use a full action attack in melee. After all a multiple attack actions are full actions. Also note that the rules as written say you cannot charge into combat and fire a weapon, although you probably woulnd't need to.

Which is why (purely house rules BTW) I coun't melee pistol attacks as melee attacks, using WS and melee talants, and multiple attacks can be used up to the weapons semi-auto rate of fire. I envisage it to be gun-fu, 'Equilibrium' (if the opponants are any good) style affair that precludes full auto (also game balance) and the main reason is that it pretty makes WS pointless and in game with chainswords and powerfists thats a crying shame.

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Necrozius said:

Exactly. I'm positive that I've seen that kind of thing in movies once or twice (slapping a guy's gun-arm away as the shot goes off). It's cinematic and fun to picture in your head, so why not?

 

This makes no sense.

If you can slap the guy's gun arm away with your chainsword, what is stopping you from just cutting the arm off?

You don't need to lean forwards to use a pistol in close combat they way you do with a melee weapon. You don't need to adjust your balance or stance to lean into the blow. You can just fire from the hip. If someone can prod your gun away at that point, I don't see why they don't just poke a hole in your throat instead.

If you're counting pistols as ranged weapons in close combat then you cannot parry them. It states in the rules that unless you have the appropriate talent (which only covers primitive firearms anyway) that you cannot parry a ranged attack.

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Headhanger said:

This makes no sense.

Oh yeah, use chain sword as an example when fists or clubs makes much more sense.  Plus there will actually be some circumstances where hacking off a person's arm isn't a good idea.  :P

Watch Equilibrium or any modern martial arts movie for that matter.  Gun gets drawn, martial artist uses his hands and/or weapon to place his body out of the path of the bullet by a) trapping the arm in a hold b) knocking aside the gun or c) hitting the gun to disarm the opponent.  So we don't always use the label "parry" but the idea remains the same and makes complete sense.

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Headhanger said:

 

If you can slap the guy's gun arm away with your chainsword, what is stopping you from just cutting the arm off?

 

Because it's not your turn to attack.

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