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jhaelen

The Dark Pharaoh Herald

26 posts in this topic

Yesterday, I played my first game using the DP Herald with AH + CotDP and Azathoth as the AO.

The game was really exciting but took me almost 6 hours to finish and went over 20 rounds.

I was quite lucky to draw several good investigators: Joe Diamond, Mandy, Gloria, and Ashcan Pete. It started reasonably well and I was able to seal two high-frequency gates early in the game (using one Elder Sign). I was less lucky with my early monster draws, many of them being too tough to take on until late in the game.

This is where I noticed one aspect of the DP Herald I hadn't realized when initially skimming over its abilities:

Trading Unique Items seems to be quite a bad idea, since gaining one causes sanity loss every time! Did I interpret this correctly?

So, I was reluctant to make any trades ending up with a pretty suboptimal item distribution.

Then the first rumour hit: The Terrible Experiment. While Joe and Pete fought this flood of monsters, several monster floods occurred at the Unvisited Isle. The terror level started to rise. When I managed to win the rumour after four turns, the boost from the new skills was very welcome.

That was when I noticed a second interesting aspect of the DP Herald:

When Gloria got cursed because of an Arkham Encounter, she only had one Health left, so she became unconscious at the start of the next upkeep phase and was transferred to the hospital. Apparently, as long as she was cursed, there was absolutely no chance to regain consciousness, since she could no longer have any encounters. Is that correct?

So, I went to the Church praying for her (i.e. gaining a blessing) to wake up. I guess I should call myself lucky because I only found a single Exhibit in the game (which promptly caused Joe to get cursed).

The real fun started, though, when I got the next rumour: Disturbing the Dead. Since I had traded my gate markers to help cursed investigators, it took me too long to close another two gates before the rumour reached its conclusion (aided by several monster floods), cursing everyone. Gloria again ended up in a coma at the hospital, but at least by then I had collected enough monster trophies to remove the curses.

I almost lost at this point because with the monster limit gone, first three maniacs escaped from the Asylum, then the turn after I had another monster flood, letting loose a total of 13 monsters in Arkham - one less than double the monster limit! Luckily this was caused by the Manhunt in Arkham!, so the net effect was that more monsters disappeared.

At that point I had sealed five gates, the doom track was at 10 and Mandy entered the gate to Yuggoth when the Mi-Go saved the world from annihilation by making her immortal. While her body was devoured, she closed and sealed the gate as a parting gift to her mortal fellow investigators.

In this game I had drawn a total of four rumours, had six monster floods, a gate would have turned up six times on the Uninvited isle and one investigator became Harried for the first time. Pete joined the Silver Twilight Lodge but was unable to ever make use of it. The Dark Pharaoh Mask turned up once but was immediately sent to the Outskirts.

In the end it was really sheer luck that allowed me to win. This was definitely a lot more difficult than I initially expected.

Next I'll try to beat Yog-Sothoth with the DP Herald.

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jhaelen said:

 

Trading Unique Items seems to be quite a bad idea, since gaining one causes sanity loss every time! Did I interpret this correctly?

So, I was reluctant to make any trades ending up with a pretty suboptimal item distribution.

 

 

Yea, I guess it would work like this...so you could drive investigators Insane just by passing Holy Water back and forth! I think I'm going to ignore this part of the Herald and only play it that when an investigator gains a unique from a non-investigator source.

 

jhaelen said:

 

That was when I noticed a second interesting aspect of the DP Herald:

When Gloria got cursed because of an Arkham Encounter, she only had one Health left, so she became unconscious at the start of the next upkeep phase and was transferred to the hospital. Apparently, as long as she was cursed, there was absolutely no chance to regain consciousness, since she could no longer have any encounters. Is that correct?

 

HA HA guess that is right...so how did you get out of it? Just pray for a 1 I guess. 

 

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That's how I play trading Unique items. If you trade to someone, that character gains one; s/he has to lose a sanity.

 

The Dark Pharaoh herald really should have a clause about not taking the stamina/curse damage when you're in the hospital. But without Inury cards, yeah you're pretty much screwed once you're there.

Worst part is, if this happens to you when you're in the OW? I know you get Lost in Time and Space, but since you skip your turn when you're there, I guess you would not have to lose stamina during the turn you're there. The Upkeep you're supposed to come back I guess you could choose to come back to Arkham before losing the stamina so that at least you go to the hospital.

Imagine how poor Rex Murhpy feels.

 

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MrsGamura said:

 You do come back from LiTaS before you do anything else and Rex never rolls to loss his curse so I think he would be safe from Boiling Blood.

I already brought that up a long time ago and it was decided that the "before the roll" is an issue of timing, and is not tied to the act of rolling. Rex is still susceptible.

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Rex doesn't even have a before the roll or in fact he does nothing during his upkeep that effects his curse so something that say before an investigator rolls for their curse losses 1 stamina would not apply to Rex because he doesn't even have a before he roll for his curse timing phase!

You play it your way I'll play it mine...this makes sense to me.

So are you with the Kate stops Gate Burst group?

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Thanks for posting that account!  I really enjoy the Dark Pharaoh Herald myself, and I must disagree with Tibs that there should be a clause about the Curse not affecting someone already in the hospital.  On the contrary, I think it's great that the Curse can permanently incapacitate an Investigator until his comrardes are able to get him blessed!  Try facing Yig with the Dark Pharaoh Herald; that's a REAL challenge! 

As Tibs pointed out, the Herald sheet gives the timing for the blood boiling Curse to take away a Stamina point; to argue that Rex doesn't suffer from the blood-boiling effect merely because he doesn't roll to discard the Curse seems to be a case of twisting the letter of the rule to deny the spirit. 

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Solan said:

 

Thanks for posting that account!  I really enjoy the Dark Pharaoh Herald myself, and I must disagree with Tibs that there should be a clause about the Curse not affecting someone already in the hospital.  On the contrary, I think it's great that the Curse can permanently incapacitate an Investigator until his comrardes are able to get him blessed!  Try facing Yig with the Dark Pharaoh Herald; that's a REAL challenge! 

 

Ouch, Yig might indeed be nasty!

 

My game against Yog-Sothoth was disappointingly easy; rather anti-climactic after the one against Azathoth.

It was a very nice team again: Mandy, Dexter, Jenny Barnes, and Darrell Simmons. But what really turned it into a cakewalk was the starting equipment: Dexter got the Find Gate spell and Darrell got the Stone of Healing and the Gate Box!

The Mythos cards were mostly favorable, causing monsters to disappear until All (was) Quiet in Arkham!

After trading the Stone to Dexter he became pretty much unstoppable. Since I had lots of cash, I could also buy an Elder Sign and later Darrell found another one while in the Other Worlds.

I almost managed to win the game by closing the four gates that were open - all at the same time! But unfortunately Jenny was delayed when she tried to free some prisoners and got herself imprisoned.

So I was one round late when gates started opening again. When the cultists were gathering for The Great Ritual it was again Dexter that saved the day and provided everyone with fresh clues.

Two monster floods caused the terror to rise once but again the monsters failed to take hold since the Feds promptly Raid(ed) Arkham!

Eventually, after a total of 13 rounds three more gates were sealed and Yog Sothoth forced to retreat. Mandy's reroll ability really helped to gain those additional successes.

Next one up will be Ithaqua!

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With Yig it doesn't make a difference; all heralds and guardians have no further effect when the AO awakens.

MrsGamura said:

 

Rex doesn't even have a before the roll or in fact he does nothing during his upkeep that effects his curse so something that say before an investigator rolls for their curse losses 1 stamina would not apply to Rex because he doesn't even have a before he roll for his curse timing phase!

You play it your way I'll play it mine...this makes sense to me.

So are you with the Kate stops Gate Burst group?

 

 

That's not really a strong argument against my statement. If the clause "before rolling to discard a curse" is referring to timing, it indeed does still affect Rex, because you could superimpose when this time would occur with any other investigator. What I suggested earlier, and what I was told on the old forums, is that the stamina damage is not tied to the roll itself; it is written that those investigators who were rolling for their curses would have to take a stamina damage first (as opposed to rolling first, getting a 1, and not having to lose stamina). Rex does not roll, so he would just take the stamina without the timing conflict.

But also as I said, this was the conclusion arrived at by the denizens of the prior forums. I do not know if it's an official ruling, but it stuck with me. I don't mind if we play it differently--just note that I have reason to suggest that the claim "but Rex doesn't roll" does not apply.

It's a little off-topic, but if you must know, I am with the "Kate stops Gate Burst" group--which I can tell by your mentioning is not an opinion you share. It's the gate that's bursting the seal. If Kate's there, there's no gate--no gate, no burst. I also believe that her ability doesn't work on monsters attacking her while in the Other World, because her capacitor stops monsters from jumping dimensions into Arkham. I just played a base-only game with Kate where her ability almost never came up. Allowing her capacitor to stop gate bursts would make her ability less rare and sporadic.

I also think that gate bursts are tied to the gate and not to the card--so getting the "a gate and monster appears" Arkham encounters when against Atlach-Nacha would still burst a seal there.

Any more questions?

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So according to you an investigator who has gotten a fresh Curse i.e. no roll for it would still loss Stamina.

Blood Will Boil starts at the beginning of the upkeep and says you loss the Stamina before you roll. So there should be no timing issues with rolling for your Curse.

 

Kate just stops a Gate from opening one her.

A Gate won't open if there is an Elder Sigh or Kate.

A Gate burst has to remove the Elder Sign first before opening the Gate.

So Kate would stop the Gate from opening but not the Elder Sigh being removed.

The Gate burst no cares if the Gate opens or not. It just removes the Elder Sigh. Then a Gate opens.

Gate Burst do not work like this, “only remove the Elder Sign if the Gate opens,“ because then Gate Burst would not open at a location with an Elder Sign!

 

 

 

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Tibs said:

That's how I play trading Unique items. If you trade to someone, that character gains one; s/he has to lose a sanity.

 

What about Rex Murphy and Clues then? In a case where Mythos/Coded Messages/etc. allows trading of Clues, he could then gain an infinite amount of Clues if one follows that line of thinking. Cases are rare, but having an investigators with a billion Clues is kinda silly.

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Tibs said:

With Yig it doesn't make a difference; all heralds and guardians have no further effect when the AO awakens.

Any more questions?

Yes, I have one.  Where does it say that all heralds have no effect once the AO awakens?

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Solan said:

Yes, I have one.  Where does it say that all heralds have no effect once the AO awakens?

KiY rules:

"If the Ancient One awakens, return the Herald sheet to the box, as it has
no further effect on the game."

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 It does seem that Rex is a good character to use on how to interpret the Dark Pharaoh.

If you in interpret it that trading a unique item counts as gaining it then like wise Rex would gain infinite clue tokens.

If you interpret that you still loss the Stamina with out the rolling for the curse then Rex is worthless vs. Dark Pharaoh. All his player gets to do is watch TV while Rex gets perpetually get knocked out without any chance of losing his curse.

 

 

 

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Don't get into the Gate Burst arguement yet again.

The best way to resolve rule questions is to do everything verbatum.  Never assume anything "could" do this or that.  Do exactly what the card says verbatum.  During resoultion, apply any special abilities aka rule EXCEPTIONS related to said card and resolve final effect.

Here is something else to think of in your little discussion about the Curse.  During the FIRST Upkeep after you get a Curse, you don't roll to see if it goes away.  Would Blood Will Boil affect an investigator during the First Upkeep after getting the Curse?  If you answer NO to that question, then Rex would be immune to Blood Will Boil.

There is a precedent for supposedly being able to get Infinite Clue Tokens.  Wilson Richard is treated as having Focus 4 in regards to anything that uses Focus for resolution.  By following that precedent, you could limit the gaining of Clues for Trading to 4.

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Thanks, Dam.  I wonder why it doesn't have that instruction in the Kingsport rulebook? 

No, Rex wouldn't gain infinite clue tokens.  How do you come to that conclusion?  By thinking that the characters would trade clue tokens back and forth an infinite number of times on that turn?  That idea is pretty silly, in that it is an abundantly clear case ot trying to deliberately break the game though an extremely questionable rules interpretation. 

No, Mrsgamura, Rex isn't useless against the Dark Pharaoh Herald.  If someone is lucky enough to have the Healing Stone it can be given to Rex and that can keep him healthy.  Or, more likely, the first person to get a gate trophy or five toughness in monster trophies can hit the Southside Church and neutralize Rex's Curse with a Blessing.  Then the Reporter can get up out of that hospital bed and start earning his keep! 

I must respectfully disagree that the best way to resolve rules questions is to do everything verbatim.  On the contrary, following the exact wording can lead to ridiculous results.  The best way to resolve rules questions was actually put forth in the first messageboard by a very wise poster (and I wish I could remember who it was!): "When there is a question, choose the interpretation that is most harmful to the Investigators". 

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By going verbatum, I have never had any problem with the rules, and many of the rules questions could easily be solved by following the wording to the letter then assuming "it could mean," "maybe it means," "it might mean," etc. and still be most harmful to the Investigators.
Do referees enforce the rules to the letter in sports?  Computers fail to work when they can't follow their programming (i.e. rules) to the letter.

I believe it was Millmaster that said that, as he was the guru of the old boards who everyone turned to for assistance, and he actually agreed with the verbatum approach, especially for beginners.

Following the Verbatum approach in regards to the current question about Blood Will Boil.
Herald Text Abbreviated: "Before you roll for your curse, lose 1 Stamina."
Question 1: Is Rex Immune to Blood WIll Boil?
Question 2: Do Investigators suffer the Stamina Loss on the First Upkeep After getting Cursed since you don't roll for Curses the First Upkeep after you get Cursed?
Verbatum Answer 1: Rex is Immune because he doesn't roll for Curses.
Verbatum Answer 2: Investigators would NOT suffer Blood Will Boil the First Upkeep after being Cursed.
Simple Logical Analysis.

Arkham Horror, while having rules, has many exceptions to many rules because of "rule bending" special abilities and effects.  As such, you shouldn't need to re-interperate every written word on every single card.

You play the game as it is written in the rulebook, then why don't you follow the cards as they are written?

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The way I look at it though, the intent of Blood Will Boil is simply that Cursed investigators take damage. The card is merely stating that you can't roll to lose the Curse before you take the damage in the Upkeep Phase.

 

Plus most of you are taking it out of context. The wording is: "At the start of the Upkeep Phase, before rolling to get rid of the curse, each cursed investigator loses 1 Stamina." Main body of the statement - "At the start of the Upkeep Phase each cursed investigator loses 1 Stamina". Proviso - "(this happens) before rolling to get rid of the curse".

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Solan said:

Thanks, Dam.  I wonder why it doesn't have that instruction in the Kingsport rulebook? 

Silly you, FFG naturally assumes you'll have bought ALL the expansion prior to KH first ! Since KiY is the one that introduced the actual Herald rules. Of course, just downloading the different rulesheets works.

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Rex can't gain infinite clues. Either you figure he runs out when you run out of clues in your set, or each investigator makes a trade once.

And for those of you who think that verbatim reading is the only logical way to go on some cards? Most of these problem cards are those that are in the base game or older expansions. They therefore could not have been written to account for certain effects in future expansions.

Need I remind everyone of Marie Lambeau + Martial Arts? Would she really get another +2 for her Third Eye effect because she has a third hand for casting spells? What about Axe + Martial Arts? If you're using the axe one-handed without anything in your other hand, do you get the extra +3 on the axe while still getting the +2 for the open hand? Or is she actually using two hands to grip the axe even though it doesn't say that literally on the Axe card and doesn't get the M.A. +2?

Notice that the problem cards when read verbatim are the older ones. Marie Lambeau came out before Martial Arts. Axe came out way before Martial Arts. When axe was printed, it didn't matter that they worded it the way they did as opposed to: "This weapon can be used 2-handed for +3 instead of +2."

My point: Rex came out after the Dark Pharaoh, when there was never an issue when a character didn't roll. Besides, it says "before" rolling for curses, not "before and if" so of course it still applies to fresh Curses or to Rex.

Gate bursts came out after Kate. Kate should stop gate bursts, because gate bursts--like regularly opening gates and appearing monsters--are affecting Arkham across dimensions, and her Flux Stabilizer should stop that. I also believe she should still get monster encounters in Other Worlds because why would her Stabilizer stop monsters if they're already there with her?

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Marie's third eye would NOT grant the open hand bonus because it is specificly for Casting Spells.  Verbatum answer.

Never said it was the only way, but it is the easiest, and in my experience, causes the fewest rule problems.  Again I ask, do you play the game by the rules in the rule book, or do you make up the rules as you go?

For everyone claiming timing issues, you can deal with each thing in the Upkeep phase when you want.   You can choose to deal with the Curse as the last part of the Upkeep Phase, or the first, applying your interpretation of Blood Will Boil before rolling for your Curse.  Timing is not the issue, but whether it always hurts or only when you roll.
If it is only when you Roll, then Investigators have a 1 Turn chance to get the Curse Removed at the Church before they suffer damage as you don't Roll to remove a Curse the first Upkeep that you have it.
By getting hurt every Upkeep, there is a good chance that more then Rex will end up being stuck in the Hospital for the game.  Might as well just retire the Investigator right then and there if that is the case.  Heck, might as well retire everytime you get cursed then.  That way, you get a fresh character that can act right now to fight monsters, get clues, gate hop, or whatever, and retain all those trophies.  Otherwise, you are just going to sit in the Hospital for the game, and might as well go do something else as you wait for the awakening of the Ancient One.

If it is, "always take damage," wouldn't the text have been written as, "At the Beginning of the Upkeep Phase, all Cursed Investigators lose 1 Stamina."  That beats any timing questions, because it says Beginning and nothing beats Beginning in regards to timing.  Or written as, "Before Investigators resolve the Upkeep Phase, all Cursed Investigators lose 1 Stamina."
Both of those would always be in effect no matter what.

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 ha ha I've been miss playing the Church this whole time...you can Bless other investigators! lol

yup that third eye only good for spells and Martial Arts is a skill last time I checked but then I do think Chen would gain a extra +1 combat check while using the Axe. Thematically she's a Martial Artist so is most likely trained in Armed Combat!

i.e. she just knows how to hold the Axe a little better and get that extra Power! than say "Me" who would drop it on my own face...so I would get -3 combat checks while using the Axe.

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"As the rules are written in the book" works for some games, but not Arkham Horror.

The rules printed in the Arkham Horror rulebook(s) are sometimes ambiguous, incomplete, or even wrong. Having multiple expansions just compounds these issues.

Some things that you could follow verbatim are wrong. There are some things you can't follow verbatim because they're not covered.

Mythos effects removing Spawns? Rifts in Vortexes? Not covered in the rules--they had to be FAQed and answered individually.
Heralds are discarded when the AO awakens. Not covered in some of the rule books.
Some printings of AH say that going to Terror Level 10 immediately adds a doom token. This has been updated and so is wrong.

The Kingsport rule book says that rifts add a doom token if they follow the path that matches their color. This is wrong: they add a doom token if their movement symbol comes up under the matching color. There are some paths that are both colors and if they follow them, they may not necessarily add a doom token. When rifts are in vortexes they don't move at all. That doesn't mean they stop adding doom tokens and creating monsters--but the rulebook verbatim concludes that they do stop doing those things.

Pretty much the point I'm driving at is that sometimes you have to make up the rules as you go along. For example:

Saying "Marie's third hand doesn't work with M.A. is a verbatim answer" is pretty much incorrect. The "verbatim" itself says the third hand can only be used for spells. It does not say that the hand is not there if it's not equipped with a spell. Therefore, following verbatim, the third hand should grant a M.A. bonus because M.A. doesn't use hands--it just counts the unused ones. I've had to make up the rule as I've gone along that her "third eye" will not grant a M.A. bonus because that's stupid--but it's not the rules verbatim.

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Apparently, we both have different definitions of verbatum.

Is M.A. a Spell or not?  Rhetorical question.  Since it is not a Spell, it can't benefit from the extra Spell Only Hand granted from Third Eye.  Think like this, are you going to be able to hit someone harder because you can concentrate on more then 1 thing, no you won't.  But that debate is for other threads.

The question is whethere Blood Will Boil is always active or only active when you are required to roll for your Curse.
Your Definition of Verbatum says always active.  Mine says only for when roll is required.

Bad writting is a problem of the designers.  The rules are sound, while their choice of words is what causes problems.  But, follow what is written, apply a little logic and common sense, and you shouldn't have any problems.  Or, maybe you have to be autistic to understand the rules without a problem.  Knowing Arkham, being dyslexic would probably provide complete clarity.

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