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Lia Valenth

Magic Underpowered?

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Not really related, but I think we have a different interpretation of Unattractive as well, since you list your appearance as 6+3. Unattractive sets your appearance to 2, it doesn't lower it by 2.

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Actually, I didn't want to get drawn into this again, because everybody is entitled to his own opinion, and if that's the way it works in your campaign, that's fine.

On the other hand, I notice tremendous possibility for abuse... not only will no melee fighter be able to compete without having this Magnus, the Magnus itself expressly allows combination with other abilities. So, consider activating this Magnus and Raikou: Lightning Blade

You take 5 turns in one turn, your enemy can do nothing but defend (so, no Counterattacks as well... your momentum cannot be broken). That means there are 15 attacks without penalty and at the end of the fifth turn you do whatever special attack from the etherial seems promising, all without the enemy being able to lift a hand. Since the enemy does suffer penalties to his defenses for the additional attacks, it does seem likely that he'll just simply be dead by the end of the fifth turn. The fighter who uses Etherial in this case proceeds to make his 6 Raikou attacks in the second round of combat.

So everyone who loses initiative against the Etherial / Raikou wielder is most likely dead before he can actually do anything... and even if you win initiative, you'd have to actually hit him to stop him for one round.

The use of Etherial does not lie in making five rouns of uninterrupted attacks in one turn, but in the payoff after five normal combat rounds... as Lia said, some opponents may require the Sure Critical effect or something else from the list to actually be beatable.

Apart from that, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Since it's very unlikely that we'll be playing a game together in the near future that should be easy enough to do :)

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I read through this entire forum, and a lot of you argued your points very well. However as far a magic being under-powered, I would have to say No. The reasoning is thus...

Besides making an uber super powerful build and comparing builds  look at it this way, Which I am using the basic magic system from the core book

Without really focusing on how powerful of spells you can just toss out, remember that by the time you actually get MA 200, you are capable of using spells between 90 and 120 zeon for free.( This is unlimited fireballs or whatever) as long as you trow one a turn.(You can keep other spells maintained when using innate magic ) So even if you do use your zeon, you are still not helpless. Also when everyone was comparing Attack and defense one thing I noticed, no one ever looked at the fact that when a wizard attacks most of the time these are considered projectile invisible attacks. Therefore depending on whether your warrior type uses block or dodge, they will have a cumulative -80, and -80 for blocking, and a -80 plus -30 for dodging. After mastery this is still - 80 for blindness on both ends, but only another -30 for blocking ( unless that character has a shield, then its null) Which is still -80 to defense for the warrior. Now if the enemy can see the supernatural this will not work as far as the blindness, but not everyone takes that advantage. ( I always do ).

As far a ethereal being broken, Its very handy versus a single opponent, and in that aspect yes it could be considered broken. But when does anyone run into a single opponent. Basically if you feel the attack is broken, either dont allow its use, or compensate with more difficult encounters. The reason I say this, is because technically we can all brake any system, if we put our minds to it, Its the GM's job either to make sure that does not happen, or to compensate.

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Ethereal isn't broken, it is underpowered. There is a long discussion on this on the official forum. Other than that I would agree, but would note there are other advantages to magic: such as being usable for things outside of combat.

However, it should be noted that most attack spells are not "invisible" (for example fireball, light beam, etc. can be seen) while other spells are invisible. Instead attack spells are a secondary energy attack type, meaning if you can not block energy your defense is 0.

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Unless you just dodge them, but yeah.

That is also a difficulty with modern firearms in game, such as wissenschaft tech or Gunhell ki technique. If you don't have inhumanity, your only defense is rolling the dice. If you do have inhumanity, you still have the projectile penalties.

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I won't comment as to the math or some other specifics that have been presented here.  Last time I ran Anima the only books were the main books and GM's book.  Still....

 

I have trouble seeing magic as "underpowered" in the system since the night one of the players decided the best way to handle the approaching ships was to summon a 31 mile long tsunami and have the ship they were on ride it away.......

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Darkorinth said:

I won't comment as to the math or some other specifics that have been presented here.  Last time I ran Anima the only books were the main books and GM's book.  Still....

 

I have trouble seeing magic as "underpowered" in the system since the night one of the players decided the best way to handle the approaching ships was to summon a 31 mile long tsunami and have the ship they were on ride it away.......

 

This post actually sums up my views very well. Magic, in my opinion. is far from underpowered. Could zeon regen be a little better? Sure. But I think everyone here is forgetting a couple of things.

1) The strength of magic over ki and psychic abilities is versatility. Im not saying that ki and psychic abilities aren't versatile, but once you pick something, especially in ki, you have that and nothing else. While magic CAN be like this, more than likely you have taken a large amount of spells in a book, or 2 or 3 books. Not to mention each spell might give you alot of control over what you can actually do with it, such as the wave in the previous post.

2) Anima is a dramatic ROLEPLAYING game. If you want to look at the most unbalanced PoS system you've ever seen? Check out anything by whitewolf, but their games are still completely functional because it hinges on the base of "Combat does not happen every minute of every day. In fact, in most occasions, its usually a last resort. I see anima as a kind of in between. Though combat is deffinately supported, I find it really sad that all people ever consider is just that. It's the "My character sucks because I can't drop a balor in 1 turn" from DnD all over again.

As a closing, magic CAN'T be all that terrible, because my players know the system in and out, and I can GUARANTEE you that the worst, most rediculous powergamers always come back to magic. And as a GM, screw the spell Chimera :P

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As a GM chimera is basically the person giving up their character. It is so easy for summoners or warrior summoners to basically control that character forever, that anybody using it is sending a subtle message that they are tired of their character.

 

As an example, my brother has created summoners that, at level 7, summon and control or bind the level 14 wizard you created on anything but a fumble.

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Kalis said:

As a GM chimera is basically the person giving up their character. It is so easy for summoners or warrior summoners to basically control that character forever, that anybody using it is sending a subtle message that they are tired of their character.

 

As an example, my brother has created summoners that, at level 7, summon and control or bind the level 14 wizard you created on anything but a fumble.

 

*Evil grin*

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Kalis said:

 

As an example, my brother has created summoners that, at level 7, summon and control or bind the level 14 wizard you created on anything but a fumble.

 

...How? Seriously does he have no Zeon or something?

EDIT: I did some math. I will be assuming a 15POW so that they have a base ability of 100 (70 class +30 Attribute).

They need to roll a 420 to Summon, 460 to Control and 440 to Bind. Therefore they need 320DP in summon, 360DP in Control, and 340DP in Bind to accomplish this, costing 1020DP, they have 720 they can spend at level 7.
If they only focus on Control and Bind this costs them a mere 700/720DP, giving them 20DP for Zeon (+100Zeon) meaning they have 650 Zeon (200 Base + 100 DP + 350 Class). It takes 560 Zeon to Control a level 14, and 180 to Bind it (so they can only Control it). Also this requires 5 turns of preperation (as that you take a -100 instantly, -50 full turn, -20 3 turns, 0 5 turns). It can be done in 1 turn, but if you fail (50% chance) you can not try again for weeks (you can not buy any Zeon Regeneration). How you would maintain this bond is beyond me.

This was just some quick math, please show how he did this because I can't figure out a way to accomplish this at level 7.

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Lia Valenth said:

Kalis said:

 

As an example, my brother has created summoners that, at level 7, summon and control or bind the level 14 wizard you created on anything but a fumble.

 

...How? Seriously does he have no Zeon or something?

EDIT: I did some math. I will be assuming a 15POW so that they have a base ability of 100 (70 class +30 Attribute).

They need to roll a 420 to Summon, 460 to Control and 440 to Bind. Therefore they need 320DP in summon, 360DP in Control, and 340DP in Bind to accomplish this, costing 1020DP, they have 720 they can spend at level 7.
If they only focus on Control and Bind this costs them a mere 700/720DP, giving them 20DP for Zeon (+100Zeon) meaning they have 650 Zeon (200 Base + 100 DP + 350 Class). It takes 560 Zeon to Control a level 14, and 180 to Bind it (so they can only Control it). Also this requires 5 turns of preperation (as that you take a -100 instantly, -50 full turn, -20 3 turns, 0 5 turns). It can be done in 1 turn, but if you fail (50% chance) you can not try again for weeks (you can not buy any Zeon Regeneration). How you would maintain this bond is beyond me.

This was just some quick math, please show how he did this because I can't figure out a way to accomplish this at level 7.

Person who binds wants to bind you for being a nuisance:

Level 7 summoner

15 Power

MA multipliers purchased 3

Advantages Power +2 The gift and superior magic recovery 2 with 3 points of disadvantage. 3 1 point disadvantages

Summon and bind 250 skill

+ 70 for class

+30

+ 50 for 1 week prep(he doesn't need to just show up and want to fight, he summons you to him and binds before you manifest fully)

+ 10 for the coin you spent when you passed through town(optional)

+ 20 for knowing your true name(optional)

to take the binder to between 400 and 430 for both checks. Add another 10 if he wants to take the full month instead of the week.

You are now inside his pokeball until he dumps some dp into control to control you full time. He only fumbles on a 1 and 2 for having mastery in both.

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How does the theoretical wizard do anything about this guy to stop it, outside of some sort of Summoner genocide plan or killing everybody he meets?

The wizard is just chilling in his crib, enjoying some fine wine, women, and food. Then suddenly he is in a dark ritual room for the briefest of seconds before being sealed in the pokeball. He has no defense against it, and can do nothing in the summoning room, since he is bound before he fully manifests in the room.

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The most important thing would be to use Illusion or Creation magic so that you look completely human. Summoners won't be able to harm you if they do not know you are not a normal human.

Assuming that for some reason does not work, here are a few countermeasures I can think of;

Predestination (Free Access 90-100) would be the most effective. For Example: Any Summoner who attempts to Contol, Bind, or Banish me shall fail. This causes the Summoner to have to pass a MR 140-240 or fail.

He could use Prepare Spell (Free Access 80-90) to store Destroy Powers (Book of Destruction 60) and use it the turn you are controlled to make them pass an MR 240 check or automatically lose their powers (and their control over you) for days until you stop maintaining it, or if you don't want to be that mean, or do not have that spell, use Unravel Ties (Book of Destruction 38) to make them pass a MR 200 check or break the Control.(as that control only makes you required to obey any commands a prepared spell could be used instantly, before they can use Bind).

Predict (Book of Light 90) Allows a wizard to see what will likely happen to them within 1 to 100 years, if this Summoner is likely to attempt this they would know far before the event.

Periodic Radius of Omniscience (Book of Light 88) would allow the caster to know the thoughts of anyone within the area (1,500ft) .

One of my favorite plans: get the Summoner in the party (also level 10) to case Control on the Wizard so that an enemy Summoner would have to beat your Summoner to do anything.

There are a lot of other ways, and any wizard that casts Chimera had better have at least two preparations in case a Summoner attempts to Control, Bind or Banish them.

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Also remember that bonuses to Magic Resistance further increase the difficulties of all Summoning abilities, so it's very easy  to boost the difficulty into the stratosphere.  While the potential danger of Summoners is always there, they are really only a threat if the Chimeraed Wizard doesn't play it smart.  They certainly don't make such characters unplayable.

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Thank you Brand, I did not know that abilities that increased resistances increased the difficulty to Summon, Control, etc.

That will add +80 to the difficulty, at the very least (from Increase Resistances, Creation 16 and Chimera itself can give another +40 from Mystic and Psychic Resistance: 40DP)

Ya, a Wizard that uses Chimera becomes control able, but if they play smart it won't matter.

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Another thing to keep in mind is that it's not the end of the world even if the wizard gets stuffed in a Pokeball.  It's another reason for the group to go on a quest - rescuing the group's mage can be a lot of fun and a good challenge.  And the wizard isn't completely powerless; he or she can communicate with the Summoner, so there are a lot of good roleplay opportunities that arise...especially if you're dealing with the sort of Wizard with fantastic social skills and/or maintained spells that could let him talk the birds out of the trees.

The situation with bonuses is kind of weird in Anima.  Going purely by RAW, there's nothing about it; you can stack them as high as you want.  But I recall reading somewhere on another forum that bonuses don't stack, but there weren't any particulars for different situations.  In my game, I allow multiple bonuses as long as they make sense.  Two artifacts (or two spells) that each grant +20 Magic Resistance would only add +20, not +40.  A female Duk'zarist (+20) Wizard with The Gift (+10) would gain a total of +30.

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I have decided to add my two cents again, however I do admit that I misspoke about most wizards attacks being invisible. However there are a few that are, or at least require a notice check to see. One of my players decided to create a wizard (which is his favorite class in Anima) and also chose to use the spell chimera. One thing that he did that really irritates me is that he now can use High Magic, since chimera turns you into a gnosis 25 creature. He also has a good number of spells that are daily up keeps, but the combination of the following three are troublesome. He used Non-existence pg 157, concealment pg 123, and undetectable pg 125. Now if you read the descriptions of these spells, in conjunction they make the character virtually undetectable, I had to literally tell him he could use undetectable or non-existence, but not both. Of course he tried to argue since it was within the constraints of the rules, so I told him it was either that or he could no longer use the character. Otherwise what what would be the point, I would literally have to throw gnosis 45 creatures at him, but then again what would be the point, because the other two characters would be decimated. (Also for those of you wondering, he projected his image to converse and react with the other two characters.) He also has Elan with Erebus, so all you have to do is read under Erebus to know what that implies.

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Simple solution: use the same character against him.

Or his character will die, or he will find some way to counter this, then use what he had used with all your future npcs.

No powerplayer can survive to his own character.

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Sebashaw said:

No powerplayer can survive to his own character.

This is a defensive technique. Neither would die because neither could find the other. The rest of the party might die though.

Your point only works with offensive techniques.

 

I have to agree with disallowing this, it is definitely too powerful to allow as is.

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When a completely magically undetectable level1 character appears, simply get a puny Level2 slinger with a level3 magic-nullifying artifact artifact stone. Aim the shots for the mage's head while he's not even looking at you because he does not even consider the possibility that anyone is aiming at him.

If a player minmaxes a character creating a game-breaking combo, you as a master are entitled to field a character-breaking combo of your own.

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