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Lia Valenth

Magic Underpowered?

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Hellgeist has said for some time that magic is underpowered, with shields breaking and abilities costing too much. I make this to resolve the issue (or at least attempt to) and attempt to understand the problem as Hellgeist sees it. If you agree to either side input would be helpful, but please do not post keep agreeing with a previous poster, I would prefer to keep this civil and not have a lot of people ganging up on one persons opinion.

As that I created this in response to the shield issue I want to understand why they are a problem. They have high enough HP that they don't normally break in a single round, can be cast multiple times in a round, many are not harmed by physical attacks, and they do not suffer a penalty for defending multiple times or against an area, so why is the fact they can break such a weakness?

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 My group came to one notable agreement on this kind of issue; if you make a caster you really only have two options (pretty flexible ones, though)

1) make sure the character has a second focus; like high medicine/herbal lore skills, a high attack score and a weapon, or wear some armor

2) go totally apesh*t; have as many spells as possible by abusing natural knowledge of a path and find potent spell combos and pump as many points into MA as possible.

 

the 'mild mannered sorcorer' and 'little witch' types lack any real kick from what I've seen. I also believe every character regardless of class should have at least some ki abilities by level 7 (pressence extrusion and aura extension are staples in some game types) unless its some totally non-combat campaign.

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brewmaster_vitty said:

a high attack score and a weapon, or wear some armor

 

That really only works in the case of Warlocks. Wizards or Wizard/Mentalists shouldn't be spending points on that kind of thing.

 

Anyway! I think that the problem comes from the fact that people expect Wizards to be slinging spells around like a fighter uses combat maneuvers or a technician uses ki techniques. Wizards shouldn't actually be casting that many spells, but the ones that they do cast should be battle-changers. With the exception of Warlocks, magic users aren't meant to be front-liners. And for the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with shields. If anything, I consider shields to be a near-necessity in combat (and certainly one for any magic user intending to be participating in a battle.)

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brewmaster_vitty said:

 

2) go totally apesh*t; have as many spells as possible by abusing natural knowledge of a path and find potent spell combos and pump as many points into MA as possible.

 

 

Natural Knowledge of a path is worse than +1 INT until level 18/16/14 (when your INT reaches 20) unless your GM allows INT to go over 20, in which case Natural Knowledge of a path is never better than INT.

Yes, finding potent spell combos and having as much MA as possible is the point of being a wizard (Unless you decrease MA for more Zeon, but that depends on the type of wizard you want to make. There are two - Glass Cannon, explosive power but runs out of steam, or Energizer Bunny, takes 3-7rounds to charge spells but keeps going and going and going...).

Also, with proper MA, Zeon Regen, and Zeon a spellcaster can attack as often as a fighter and fight on the front line. Just not at levels 1-4.

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 if by worse you mean less powerful then yes, but you do get a bigger spell library and thus more versatility. admittedly this option only really has 'oomph' when the optional creation point rules are used (where you can use those bonus points from even levels as CP, from the GM's toolkit), and i'v seen some absolutely overpowered spellcasters who have stacked just a few of those and then bought individual spells for combo making, it really does turn out quite effective and definitely not underpowered.

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brewmaster_vitty said:

 if by worse you mean less powerful then yes, but you do get a bigger spell library and thus more versatility. admittedly this option only really has 'oomph' when the optional creation point rules are used (where you can use those bonus points from even levels as CP, from the GM's toolkit), and i'v seen some absolutely overpowered spellcasters who have stacked just a few of those and then bought individual spells for combo making, it really does turn out quite effective and definitely not underpowered.

No. At 10 INT (what I assume a wizard starts at) they have 50 spell levels. At 11/12/13 INT they have 75/100/150 spell levels (bought with CP). At level 2 they increase to 200 spell levels, at level 4 they now have 15 INT and 300 spells, lvl 6 400 spell levels, lvl 8 500 spell levels, +100/2 levels till level 14

At 10 INT (what I assume a wizard starts at) they have 50 spell levels. At 1/2/3 Natural Knowledge they have 40/80/120 extra spell levels. At level 1 they thus have 170 spell levels (20 more than with high INT) at level 2 they have 205 spell levels, at level 4 they have 230 spell levels, at level 6 they have 280 spell levels, lvl 8 330 spell levels, lvl 10 +100/2 levels till level 20.

Therefore Natural Knowledge of a path is worth more than increased INT at levels 1-2 and 16+. +1 INT is worth more spells for levels 3-15. IF you start above level 16, or actually get to level 15 you are correct, otherwise increased INT means stronger spells and more spells.

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Gotta tell you I think increasing POW and Opposed Magic are better long-term. As that without Opposed Magic you have 33% less spell levels and with 12 POW you have a base MA of 15, instead of 10, which is worth a lot once you have 7-10 MA multiples

But that is my personal opinion. Don't got math to back it up =[

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 Speaking of some strange Wizard math, I was thinking about the Magic Projection as an Attack/Defense modules and how they affect DP expenses. Here's some examples.

 

Level 15 Warlock (w/ Atk/Def mods):  2000 DP

50% Supernatural        |  50% Other

1000 DP                       |  1000 DP

-150 for Atk/Def mods  |  500 DP in Atk/Def (each)

 

This leaves 850 DP for MA/Zeon/ML with a Magic Projection of 250 (base) in both Attack and Defense.

 

Level 15 Wizard (no mods):  2000 DP

60% Supernatural  |  40% Other

1200 DP                 |  800 DP

500 for Mag. Proj.  |  Only used for secondary abilities

 

This leaves only 700 DP for MA/Zeon/ML with the same Magic Projection value as the Warlock. Given, the Wizard will have some secondary abilities, but combat-wise, the Warlock is looking more effective. But then I thought of another possibility.

 

Level 15 Wizard (w/ Atk/Def mods):  2000 DP

60% Supernatural        |  40% Other

1200 DP                       |  800 DP

-150 for Atk/Def mods  |  400 DP in Atk/Def (each)

 

This leaves 1050 DP for MA/Zeon/ML with a total Magic Projection of 200, given a good bit less, but with a substantially higher remaining DP.

 

Even if you wanted to push Magic Projection above 250, the only class that can even do it is the Wizard, but he'll be pulling from his MA/Zeon/ML pool to do it.

 

Another thing I might have missed, is there any other way to raise your projection? A Warrior at the same level could spend 50% DP in Atk/Def and have 250 Atk/Dodge, but would also be getting a +50 class bonus and likely a higher Dex bonus, since the Wizard is already splitting stats between Int/Pow its hard to drop much into Dex, not to mention +20 or even +25 weapons by now, putting a Warrior at 325 before Dex against a max 250 Mag. Proj. Hell, a Warrior could even take the Combat Senses advantage for another 50 Atk or Defense, putting him up to a 375 before Dex. This is making Wizards seem a little pitiful, given if they wanted to match that they would need 700 DP in Projection to get 350 before Dex, leaving only 500 DP for MA/Zeon/ML.

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Your math modified by a person who plays just about only wizards and warlocks.

 Level 15 Warlock (w/ Atk/Def mods):  2000 DP
50% Supernatural      |  50% Other
1000 DP                       |  1000 DP
-150 for Atk/Def mods: 850 for MA/Zeon/ML  |  500 DP in Atk/Def (each) (therefore 250 attack/defense magic projection plus DEX, class bonuses do not apply to projection through modules and 300 plus DEX to Attack and Block.)

This leaves 850 DP for MA/Zeon/ML with a Magic Projection of 250 (+ DEX) in both Attack and Defense.

Level 15 Wizard (no mods):  2000 DP
60% Supernatural |  40% Other
1200 DP                  |  800 DP
600 for Mag. Proj.  |  Only used for Ki, health, and secondary abilities (remember a wizard can use 50% of the 60% DP they can spend, unlike a fighter who can only spend 50% of total DP. And they can spend 10% of their DP on MK for Ki without losing anything. And because they can gain a bonus to health equal to their con for 20DP each. [or 200DP in Ki and up to 30 multiples of CON, with 5-8 CON that is as much as 150-340 more HP, if you do not use secondary skills])

This leaves only 600 DP for MA/Zeon/ML with 300 Magic Projection (+DEX) which is 50 points higher than the warlocks (the same as the warlock has for non-magical attack/defense). Given, the Wizard will have some secondary abilities, and more Ki abilities (Like Inhumanity, Zen, speed, and other generally useful abiities). However remember that a Wizard will probably have higher POW and thus a higher base MA (thus every multiple is worth more).

Level 15 Wizard (w/ Atk/Def mods):  2000 DP
60% Supernatural        |  40% Other
1200 DP                         |  800 DP
-150 for Atk/Def mods  |  400 DP in Atk/Def (each)

This leaves 1050 DP for MA/Zeon/ML with a attack and defense magic projection of about 131,  ALOT less, basically useless in combat, but godly for buffing allies. But if all you wanted to do was buff allies a 10 DEX, or 30DP in Magic Projection, which costs a bit less than 150, gives you 750 more Zeon at least or so.

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There's all kinds of fun things you can do with math and special ability stacking for an extremely specialized build. Its called powergaming, and you can make any class in Anima look great if you do it - especially when all your looking at is their Level 15 build. Everybody is going to look good at level 15.

The problem is, this is a roleplaying game. Not all players are powergamers, nor do they understand the rules well enough to create a build that works. On top of that its very unrealistic, considering the campaign setting, for any wizard to have reached a position of such extreme class evolution to even be a candidate for training to become the kind of monster you'd want to build. Magic is in it's twilight in Anima, and only exists in very small secret covens scattered throughout the world. At the height of magical development (perhaps in the Chaos Era), wizard universities would be more likely to train and guide candidates toward such extremely specialized roles.

Add to this the fact that an acutal roleplayer may have a concept in mind that they would like to play (for which an extreme powergamer build has no room), or they may have a liking for one of the magical paths that is not good with damage (Essence for example).

My point has been, from the beginning, that an average player who is not powergaming can make a character that is viable and competitive with other classes during the levels prior to level 15 unless they choose wizard or warlock. That is because the system was over-balanced to the detriment of magic. Anima as a game system favors all other abilities.

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 Magic does have a lot of power, utility; but I agree that the zeon classes are probably the hardest to play (especially for new characters and low level characters). I wonder if giving everyone magic regeneration 1 for free would help out? With the rules from Aracane exxet for faster regeneration for resting it would help zeon users get back in the game with a few days instead of weeks.  

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hellgeist said:

 

There's all kinds of fun things you can do with math and special ability stacking for an extremely specialized build. Its called powergaming, and you can make any class in Anima look great if you do it - especially when all your looking at is their Level 15 build. Everybody is going to look good at level 15.

The problem is, this is a roleplaying game. Not all players are powergamers, nor do they understand the rules well enough to create a build that works. On top of that its very unrealistic, considering the campaign setting, for any wizard to have reached a position of such extreme class evolution to even be a candidate for training to become the kind of monster you'd want to build. Magic is in it's twilight in Anima, and only exists in very small secret covens scattered throughout the world. At the height of magical development (perhaps in the Chaos Era), wizard universities would be more likely to train and guide candidates toward such extremely specialized roles.

Add to this the fact that an acutal roleplayer may have a concept in mind that they would like to play (for which an extreme powergamer build has no room), or they may have a liking for one of the magical paths that is not good with damage (Essence for example).

My point has been, from the beginning, that an average player who is not powergaming can make a character that is viable and competitive with other classes during the levels prior to level 15 unless they choose wizard or warlock. That is because the system was over-balanced to the detriment of magic. Anima as a game system favors all other abilities.

 

 

First if the problem is that the player does not understand the game well enough to make a good character that is a problem with the player not the rules, and the GM's job to explain how it works.

Second, that is true. If a would-be wizard is not found by (or does not find) a teacher, Tol Rauko, The Magus Order, The Heaven Order, or some other secret organization they would not be able to learn very easily. (I have to disagree, however, because it exists in very big secret covens throughout the world) The creator realized this and gave the players Natura 10+ to explain why strange things happen around them.

Third, Weak offensive or defensive spell paths is an option (personally Essence is my third favorite book.) and the GM has to incorperate the fact that they are not a good combatant and make challenges for their abilities. If the GM only has combat challenges then yes, these builds will not work very well. But this is a problem of an individual game, not a problem of the rules.

If your saying a player who is not a wizard or warlock will suck at magic your probably right. This game is set up so if your class is not designed to do something they can't do it well.

If your saying a wizard or warlock is weaker than other classes due to magic being underpowered I disagree.

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A problem that my brother has with magic(and I agree to an extent) is that it is relatively easy to increase attack(weapon quality, class bonus, master bonus or ki techniques), while it is extremely difficult to increase magic projection defense in the same way, which at high levels can lead to mages being basically one shot/stun-locked by any serious combatant.

At level 10, the base difference between a shadow/warrior/acrobatic warrior and a wizard using a magic shield with the same dex is 25ish. Increasing specialization in defense for the wizard can decrease the difference to 10. The shadow however is more likely to find a higher quality weapon that increases attack than the wizard is to find something that increases magic projection by the same amount(say a difference of 5 or 10). The shadow is also more likely to invest in dex than the wizard, which increases the difference even further(especially with the rules of difference in abilities between attackers). The shadow is also more likely to have developed a ki technique to add to attack than the wizard is to have a magic projection increasing one. A decent attack enhancing technique can basically make it so that the wizard is counting on the the more martially inclined character to fumble to stand a chance of dodging. And this is discounting stuff like stealth or shenanigans like ars magnus, which the wizard will almost certainly never qualify for.

Now, the combatant is certainly not going to do all that great against invisible attacks or stuff of the wizard if they get it off. The martial character is also more likely to have a decent armor by default.

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Interesting, if true, I would however like to ask where you get your math. Though level 10 is the worst time to be a wizard in terms of attack/defense.

Here is my math:

I assume both the Wizard and the Warrior (or whatever) have put in the maximum DP into Attack/Defense or Magic Projection. Therefore the Warrior will have 186/187 Attack and Defense (with a total of 750 DP invested) and the wizard will have 225 Magic Projection (With a total of 450DP invested).

Then I will assume both have a 10 DEX, so +15 giving the Warrior 201/202 Attack and Defense and the Wizard a 240 Magic Projection.

Next lets assume the Warrior has the highest imbalance they can (50pt difference) towards attack, giving them +12 attack and -12 defense, or 214 Attack and 189 Defense. I'll assume the Wizard is defense minded with the largest imbalance he can get so he has a -30 attack and +30 defense, or 210 attack and 270 defense.

But I have not added the +50 the Warrior gets to his attack and defense (unless he is specific classes, like technitian which gives only bonuses to attack). This gives him 239 defense and 264 attack.

As you can see, according to my math, his attack is lower than the wizards defense. If he had a +15 sword he would have 254 Block (If he chose block) and 279 attack, 9 points above the wizards 270 defensive projection. With +3 DEX (6 levels invested) he will get another +10, which is great because he is now 19 points higher attack than the wizards defense.

And yes Ki techniques could increase the attack, but metamagic can increase a wizards projection, as can a few spells, so I am ignoring those for the moment. I don't see this as a problem, as that a wizard can defend as many times as he wishes without lowering his projection, where a fighter will take a -30, -50, -70, and -90 on consecutive defenses, and a wizard can attack as many times as he has MA for, where a fighter takes a -25 attack per extra attack to all attacks. (or in this case 289 attack for 1 attack, 264 attack for 2 attacks, and 239 attack for three attacks.) and they get a lot of useful non-combat abilities like healing, resurrection, and can create magic weapons to give to their melee allies.

And that is why I love math. My math could be wrong though, please point out if it is.

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Lia Valenth said:

 

Next lets assume the Warrior has the highest imbalance they can (50pt difference) towards attack, giving them +12 attack and -12 defense, or 214 Attack and 189 Defense. I'll assume the Wizard is defense minded with the largest imbalance he can get so he has a -30 attack and +30 defense, or 210 attack and 270 defense.

The way my group read the imbalance section is that he could only separate the scores by 30(Under no circumstances may the difference be higher than 30 is the wording) in magic projection(+15/-15 either way) The warrior started with the imbalance at 190 attack and 185 defense(because working in 5's makes things easier).

The problem is that ki techniques seem to be capable of raising attack(and the number of unpenalized attacks) by much more than spells and metamagic raises magic projection. Defensive erudtion raises it by 20 for a whopping 80 zeon(and an active action) with per round maintenance(so you aren't going to be walking around with it all the time and you can't put it up on reaction if the warrior beats you on initiative). Also if the difference in agility+dex between the wizard and warrior is greater than 7(because physical attributes are more important for a warrior than for a wizard) the warrior starts to receive a bonus to all physically contested rolls(such as dex based attack against dex based magic projection).

Original estimates were a bit off

190 attack 185 defense +50 for class(warrior, shadow, warlock, warrior-mentalist, weaponmaster or acrobatic warrior)

240 attack and 235 defense no dex because it adds the same either way

wizard/illusionist has 225 projection which the imbalance makes equal to the 240 magic projection defense(equaling the warrior)

Warrior has a +15 quality weapon(not altogether unlikely by the time level 10 rolls around), while the wizard has an artifact(say a staff) that adds +5 to magic projection(not impossible to consider at this level) that he found in some ancient ruins. This is an imbalance of +10 for the warrior so far.

The warrior is more likely to start with a higher dex/agi than the wizard(depending on the character, or attribute rolls) because the wizard is more likely to want power and int as high stats. The warrior is also more likely to raise dex as he levels up(since for some it can increase both attack and defense). +15 from the general differences makes it a total of +25 for the warrior so far.

Erudition defense adds +20 base(but with per round maintenance it is unlikely to be up all the time unless you are expecting trouble in the immediate future) while a relatively simple 4 dex ki points technique can add +40 to your attack(maintained). A total difference of 45 so far. The wizard definitely does not want to attempt to soak the blow by halving his defense, so he is likely to get stunlocked unless blessed by the dice gods.

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You are correct about the wizard imbalance, thank you for that note.

Your difference in the DEX of the characters is larger than realistic. In reality I would assume the Wizard has higher DEX on average, but that is because I would assume that by level 10 they know the Book of Creation and started with 9-10 DEX, then got +2 or +3 from the Chimera spell for 11 total and a +20 bonus. With this the +15 higher you suggest would be -5 to +5, or the fighter having +5 to +15 above the wizard. This is what I call a bad variable, because it is uncontrollable.

However, this is not working. There are too many variables that we do not agree on. I have a suggestion to solve this. I suggest we both make level 10 characters and see what actual level 10s would be, not theoretically could be. Yes a fighter could have a 15 higher DEX bonus than a wizard, but in exchange they would have relatively low strength. Yes this isn't role playing, but class strength is a system question, role playing is based on the player not the system. Do you think that could work, of course we would have to set some ground rules about stats, whats allowed, etc.

EDIT: and you do not want me arguing all the things a wizard can do with spells to improve their stats. Yes you could gain a +40 to attacks from one of 3-6 techniques you are allowed, but before battle I could gain 10 armor against everything (and in battle gain another 15 armor that stacks), grant myself extra HP, increase my regeneration so I heal every turn rather I take actions or rest, gain a damage barrior of over 110, not to mention the in battle teleport, freeze time, etc. and while I am at it i can make body guards, and little annoying creatures with my magic. I did not mention these, much as I would like to ignore techniques, because there are even MORE uncontrollable variables in that are not only more numerous but have a larger effect to the point that a wizard is defined by what their spells can do outside combat, not their magic projection.

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Chimera has benefits, but it leaves you vulnerable to summoners. It would also leave you with a lower magic projection for your level, since every 100 dp over your normal amount is another level. So base Chimera adds two levels(150dp), and none of the dp can be spent in primaries or secondaries.

So, if a 8th level wizard casts Chimera, he is now a 10th level wizard, and needs as much exp to advance as a 10th level wizard, per the rules for dp(only exception is bonus dp for higher gnosis). He can not spend any of his new dp on primaries, so he still has the magic projection of an 8th level wizard. You get the other benefits(zeon and skill bonuses from levels), but 2 new levels with no secondaries or primaries hurts.

You would be better off with the elan ability that Uriel gives at Elan 80. This gives 30 gnosis, but leaves you as a natural being(thus immune to summoners) and allows you to spend points on monster powers when you level up(gnosis 25 does this). You don't instantly go up in level, but as you level up you can gain more abilities, by siphoning a bit from secondaries.

Also, your damage barrier could be 9001 and it wouldn't matter. Any level 10 combatant worth his salt is going to have aura extension and ignore all damage barriers(because you ignore them with any attack able to damage energy, which is all of them). You won't be able to freeze time or get regen 19+, because it would require a gnosis of 40, and chimera only sets it to 25.

 

As for stats in an experiment. The starting stats for my illusionist in my brother's game were 10, 10, 9, 9, 8, 7, 5, 4. If that seems fair to you, we can book it(though it does mean your dex can be nice and high to start).

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First: Here is something I have always wondered about Chimera. Chimera increases your level by 2, but only gives you these abilities through the body you possess. However experience is not contained in the body, it is contained in the mind. Could not a Creation/Essense wizard become a Chimera, and later create a natural body to transfer their soul to it in order to remove the chimera's "bonuses". For example if a wizard at level 5 cast chimera, leveled up to level 8 then created a natural human body and transfered their soul to it. Would this cause them to be level 6 or level 8?

Second: What if you transfer your soul to a Being Between Worlds, or a dragon, or something, do you gain the bonuses of that body like a chimera body, or do you keep only what you have and just get a new body?

As per the summoner problem. Ya, that is a huge problem. That would be the balancing factor of the Chimera spell otherwise being too powerful.

Also, while I am not sure, I believe Uriels ability only allows you to spend the 50DP you get from being Gnosis 30 to gain creature abilities, not the DP you gain as you level up. If not it is a lot more powerful that I thought it was.

 

Those stats are fine, this will be interesting at the very least. Lets have some fun with it cool.gif.
Should i be using spells from the Anima: Beyond Fantasy book or the Core Exxet book?

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Lia: " First if the problem is that the player does not understand the game well enough to make a good character that is a problem with the player not the rules, and the GM's job to explain how it works.

Uh, hold on there - I've been GMing this game for months, and I don't even know the game well enough because I haven't read Arcana Exxet, Those Who Walked Among Us, and Gaia Book II. Those contain essential information to understand how this game world works, and I don't know Spanish, so reading pdfs is not an option. Some things have been pulled from those volumes and put online, but they are fragments without enough context to understand what their place and meaning are in terms of the default Gaia campaign scenario.

Add to this the terrible condition of the rules themsevles - there are so many of them that are written so vaguely that you could justly rule on them in two opposing ways. If it was very clear and concise, I could see how it should just fall to the reader to learn the skill of powergaming with it. But its not clear, and its not balanced. A balanced system is one in which every archetype can be reasonably match to any other in terms of power throughout all levels, not just at 10+. How does a Wizard get to level 10 at all, when they cannot be competitive with the threats that are suitable for other classes? It just would not realistically ever happen. Magic would become a dead art because no fledgelings would survive.

Lia: "Third, Weak offensive or defensive spell paths is an option (personally Essence is my third favorite book.) and the GM has to incorperate the fact that they are not a good combatant and make challenges for their abilities. If the GM only has combat challenges then yes, these builds will not work very well. But this is a problem of an individual game, not a problem of the rules."

It IS a problem of the rules. Every other class and power set (Ki, Psi) is set up to be very competitive in terms of conflict from level 1 onward. Magic classes are not. I've play tested this, and even destruction mages are no match for Ki users and Psychics. Their sole and only chance for survival in a match is to succeed with their magic shield for enough rounds to accumulate a powerful enough attack. Hoping for initiative is asking to die by your 2nd or 3rd fight. Assuming your opponent can't see your spells is also a bad idea, unless all your fighting are low level NPC warriors/guards. 

Lia" If your saying a wizard or warlock is weaker than other classes due to magic being underpowered I disagree." 

You are free to disagree all you want. I'm just responding with my own experience and tests using this system over the past 6 months (Core rules, and Gaia book 1). You are obviously a powergamer, but let me try one more time to communicate to you the fact that not all players are powergames, nor should they be. I've been a GM for many years and used a number of systems, some good and some bad. I know when I'm looking at a problem - if Anima is played by non-powergamers who are not studying every rulebook in print like their grad degree depends on it, they are going to have way too many problems surviving as a mage. Even if they do powergame it, there ends up being online one kind of mage who can limp along - the kind that has all the same 'required' Advantages, items, tweaks, and exploits.

I can make an infinite variety of Ki users who will all enjoy a competitive edge against any threat, but on average, a wizard is going to be toast in combat, and a major liability to the party once their zeon runs out (and they need a month to rest). This last point is too often ignored - on a long adventure, when everyone else can press on after a night's rest, a wizard is dead weight without their zeon. Anything over a day of downtime is enough to get the group killed if they were relying on the wizard for anything. Seriously, a character cannot obtain enough CP to cover all these holes.

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First of all, yes I am a powergamer. Which has helped me a lot as a GM because by understanding the rules I can create balanced creatures during a game without interrupting the session. I do not see this as a bad thing.

Second, you have a point. It is unfortunate that Wizards advantages will often look similar. 2CP is automatically chosen for them, and any long term game almost requires Opposed Magic, meaning that you have to take disadvantages to get any other bonuses. This is a problem, but the disadvantages they take define the character more, and they have to choose wisely what is worth losing for any gain.

I must however point out that the difference between Wizards is what spells they choose, not what advantages they get, and they have a LOT of choices. 9 books with 30-40 spells each, some 100-ish free access spells, 12-ish sub paths that have 10 spells each, and metamagic abilities all define the character of the mage. what (s)he believes in and finds worthy of studying. The number of Spell Levels they can have is very limited, compared to what they can get. If you do not consider these things differences between spellcasters then you would be correct that all wizards are almost exactly the same.

Wizards are a liability in combat. Unless they aren't. It all depends on what spells they take. Once their Zeon runs out they better hope they have daily maintained spells or, yes, they would be very easily killed. But if you overlook the spells with daily maintenance, which almost every book has, you overlook part of what makes that wizard unique.

I admit you are correct in that Wizards are harder to play than other classes. You have to consider what spells you have, what spells you maintain daily, how much Zeon you can use in a single encounter, if you maintain a shield can you use offensive and still be useful later? When do you need to hold back and when you should go all out? How long will you need to rest if you use a lot of Zeon? Then what do you do if your out of Zeon? Do you hide in a corner or do you have a few tricks up your sleeve? If your statement had been that Wizards are weaker then I will tell you, as a powergamer who looks for what is strong or weak, that is not true, in combat or out of combat.That is what I thought you were arguing. However, if your statement is that Wizards are harder to use than other classes, as this seems to be your actual point, then I will agree. While I do not find them harder, I am a powergamer, your argument has proved to me non-powergamers would likely find them so. This isn't so much a power imbalance as it is a requirement to have a different mindset than other classes.

I didn't realize that your quote area had some new things in it, I will read through it and reply shortly as best I can. Although I am confused, is your problem that magic is underpowered in combat or much harder to play?

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I think this is the best argument I can have.

"Uh, hold on there - I've been GMing this game for months, and I don't even know the game well enough because I haven't read..." (By Hellgeist)

If you don't understand how Wizards work, how can you say they are underpowered and be considered a valid source?

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Uriel's ability gives you gnosis 30, and the 50 dp or the creation points, as well as all the other advantages of being gnosis 30. Starting at gnosis 25, you may spend dp from leveling up on monster powers, even if they are not normal to your race.

The other questions, I am unsure of, since there is some ambiguity in some rules. But I would place such a person at the beginning of level 6.

Either spell list should be fine, just don't mix and match(ie. no chimera from the first book and something else from core exxet). DE and AE should also be allowed. I would prefer the secondary system from Core Exxet(though it doesn't really make a difference in this type of set up). I would also say no Elan abilities, through cp or assumed story,  because they can get ridonculous and aren't really measuring the classes themselves(100 synchronization w/ Noah warlock gets the best of both worlds).

Item availability: I would say one +15 object for metal based items(weapons, armor), and as many +10 items as you feel are reasonable. Artifacts aren't unreasonable at this level, but they can be so varied by the rules on cipher studio forums it seems silly to use them.

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