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Chimaera

Zombies over Gorillas?

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Devain said:

Also, aren't snipers and artillery quite effective at taking out units that dig in? Maybe you mean this to be inside buildings? I would have liked a way to destroy buildings, actually.

Exactly what I mean.

You won't be able to shoot at them from the outside meaning you will have to go in and clear them to get to an objective. A very nasty proposition at this point.

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Chimaera said:

asbestos said:
I have a feeling that the Hammers, Hell Boys, and Sgt. Rhino (who sounds like he might have Beserk?) were designed with building clearing in mind.

 

Do you have the stats/abilities for them?

The Hell Boys are exactly like BBQ Squad, only exchanging one shotgun for an extra flamethrower, and getting rid of the Demo Charges. They would do 18/1 against the zombies with Grenadier X, without getting into Close Combat, which is not too shabby.

The Hammers and Rhino have Move 2 and Jump, with Rhino having Berserk, which would be very useful in this situation. But while together they'd do 20/1 against Armor 2 infantry, against Armor 3 zombies they'd only do 10/1, and with Close Combat retaliation. Here we clearly see that having the Zombies be Armor 3 is a big problem.

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Loophole Master said:

The Hammers and Rhino have Move 2 and Jump, with Rhino having Berserk, which would be very useful in this situation. But while together they'd do 20/1 against Armor 2 infantry, against Armor 3 zombies they'd only do 10/1, and with Close Combat retaliation. Here we clearly see that having the Zombies be Armor 3 is a big problem.

Thinking it might be better to stick Ozz 117 with the Hammers then, to get his flamethrower and the Heroic Attack immunity. Rhino might be better with say, Tank Busters, which would absolutely obliterate enemy armor with Berserk letting them reroll misses.

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Loophole Master said:

Chimaera said:

asbestos said:

 

I have a feeling that the Hammers, Hell Boys, and Sgt. Rhino (who sounds like he might have Beserk?) were designed with building clearing in mind.

 

Do you have the stats/abilities for them?

 

The Hell Boys are exactly like BBQ Squad, only exchanging one shotgun for an extra flamethrower, and getting rid of the Demo Charges. They would do 18/1 against the zombies with Grenadier X, without getting into Close Combat, which is not too shabby.

The Hammers and Rhino have Move 2 and Jump, with Rhino having Berserk, which would be very useful in this situation. But while together they'd do 20/1 against Armor 2 infantry, against Armor 3 zombies they'd only do 10/1, and with Close Combat retaliation. Here we clearly see that having the Zombies be Armor 3 is a big problem.

An even bigger problem if a unit of Gorillas with Markus are located close by or even another unit of Zombies waiting to mop up (and the likelyhood is there will be) in the event the Hammers or Hell Boys got lucky. Unless there is another Hammers or Hell Boys unit it is game over.

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I have no issue with the zombies being Armor 3. Its not that I think the Zombies have anything that I think they should not have (in fact, I am just fine with how they are) its the Apes that are not up to par with how they should be.

Charge, Berserk, Jump these just seem like things Apes should have. I would even take Charge over Fast for them (or Assualt even or Agile) just something to make them stand out from Zombies and be different and yet valuable.

Of course, in the Comics (cringe, roll Sanity Check) Grenadier X did make short work of Markus!

 

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I might have to kit-bash and convert some apes and replace their right panzer gloves with MG 44 zwei from the SturmGrenadiers and then they would have a range attack and a single panzer glove in close combat.

Be cool models I think.

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 Someone brought this up on the Board Game Geek boards... the difference between Markus + Gorillas and Zombies + Hero is 10 points, so maybe the question is 'Are the Zombies stronger than the Gorillas AND a sniper squad?'

 

I mean, we can't really look at these units in a vacuum can we? Even if the more expensive Zombies are X points per unit better than the Gorillas... you still need to figure out what you're losing by going with the more expensive unit.

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asbestos said:

 Someone brought this up on the Board Game Geek boards... the difference between Markus + Gorillas and Zombies + Hero is 10 points, so maybe the question is 'Are the Zombies stronger than the Gorillas AND a sniper squad?'

 

I mean, we can't really look at these units in a vacuum can we? Even if the more expensive Zombies are X points per unit better than the Gorillas... you still need to figure out what you're losing by going with the more expensive unit.

Forget the "Gorillas and Hero vs Zombies and Hero" argument. Ignore the heroes.

Looking at SeeLowe we see Zombiers are 31, Gorillas are 24. The difference is 7 points. With that y ou can get a beobachter squad, which adds 2 dice of range4 damage against (Infantry) AC 2 and 3 and 4 dice against AC 1 and 2 dice against (tank) AC 1. And the Artillery Strike skil, which is useful if you have an artilery unit.

That does help. A tad bit. If the heroes are involved, the difference is 12 points, which is snipers, and almost snipers and beobachter and not too far from recon grenadiers or manfred.

And it isnt a vacuum we are looking at these fellas at. Its a points question. How much is a extra figure worth? How much would a squad 3 of Zombies be valued at?

If you do the math, the game is saying each Zombie is worth 6.2 points while each ape is worth 8 points.

In that case I dont think they are balanced as reduced cover save should be cancelled out by damage resistance and after that the two are identical on a one on one basis especially in thier element of close combat.

So a squad of 5 zombies is 31 points, a squad of 5 apes would be 40 points.

So if you break it down to the points, and are doing a 180 point fight and the Apes went Markus (20 points) and 6 squads of apes (144 points) they still have 16 points left.

If the Zombies went Totenmeister (24 points) and 5 squads of zombies (155 points) they would have 1 point left.

This allows the Gorilla force to add Manfred or a squad of Recon Grenadiers or Snipers and the Beobachter. For a total of 20, 23 or 24 models. While the Zombies would have 26 models.

Is it balanced, well it is close. At a larger scale it seems to almost work itself out. But I dont think the Snipers or Beobachter or Recon Grenadiers or Manfred are going ot throw wnough dice into ranged combat to make a big difference against damage resilience Armor 3 foes.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

In that case I dont think they are balanced as reduced cover save should be cancelled out by damage resistance 

Damage Resilient does not cancel out with reduced cover. First, DR is on ALL the time, while cover you need to be in specific squares on the board, and hope the enemy will be in certain squares on the board. Corner cover can be outmaneuvered, ammo crates and tank traps can be destroyed, DR is permanent. Second, it also works for attacks that ignore normal cover, like C weapons, flamethrowers and artillery. Damage Resilient is MUCH more powerful than normal cover.

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Loophole Master said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

In that case I dont think they are balanced as reduced cover save should be cancelled out by damage resistance 

 

Damage Resilient does not cancel out with reduced cover. First, DR is on ALL the time, while cover you need to be in specific squares on the board, and hope the enemy will be in certain squares on the board. Corner cover can be outmaneuvered, ammo crates and tank traps can be destroyed, DR is permanent. Second, it also works for attacks that ignore normal cover, like C weapons, flamethrowers and artillery. Damage Resilient is MUCH more powerful than normal cover.

Which proves even more, on a model to model case, that the Zombies are mor epowerful, and yet cheaper then Apes.

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I would be a little worried about just upping the Gorillas just so they came on par with the Zombies. Basically that would mean the Axis would have two increedibly deadly close combat options.

After thinking a bit more on this. How does this sound. Leave the Zombies at their points cost, reduce them to inf armour 2 but give them cover saves on hits in both soft and hard cover. This would sort of be the reverse of the Snipers cover saves. Inf armour 2 would mean they wouldn't be as hard as nails in both the attack/defend stats although they would retain massive melee capability they wouldn't be as indestructable up close, and both cover saves on hits only would mean they would retain just a little more survivability at range. It would mean both the Zombies and Gorillas would have a specific niche.

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I would be against the change in Armor Class mainly because I havent seen much a difference in AC 2 and AC 3 damage factors. Sure, some weapons go form 2 Dice to 1 Dice and so forth, but those are usually specialty dice. AC 3 is not the issue. Its what happens after AC 3, mainly that Zombies have 5 squad members and apes 3, which affects number of dice rolled for combat and how much damage they can sustain.

Making apes the same points cost and then adding charge or berserk or both changes how they would be used. Changes what they are worth and doesnt reduce the value of zombies.

It just makes them different enough to make them both worthwhile in their own way.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

 

I would be against the change in Armor Class mainly because I havent seen much a difference in AC 2 and AC 3 damage factors. Sure, some weapons go form 2 Dice to 1 Dice and so forth, but those are usually specialty dice. AC 3 is not the issue.

 

 

Most things that shoot bullets tend to drop at least 2 dice unless they are already at 2 or 1 die vs Armor 2, then it only drops 1 or stays the same.

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Major Mishap said:

Thats the point, the majority of common attacks have the same effect against A2 or A3

 

True at this point but that is probably because like me you don't have the Hammers & Rhino. As pointed earlier they will have 20 attacks against AC2 and 10 vs AC3. This is now the bulk of my logic behind my AC drop to 2 while keeping the Gorillas at AC3. The Hammers will be the only effective counter in melee to Zombies and Gorillas although the Gorillas will turn in to a tougher proposition, the Zombies will most likely fall or be badly depleted. In return the Hammers will also most likely be wiped out but at least they will have done their job to an extent.

The shooting angle wasn't really the basis for the drop to AC2 although it will help a little. It's having an effective counter in melee that rules my logic although the Grim Reapers would beome much more effective when shooting at them. Giving them soft and hard cover saves also seemed fair and realistic, while the retained DR in flavour with the Zombie theme.

Here is another thought & I may have missed it somewhere. Can a command squad medic revive Zombies/Gorillas or indeed can a squad be brought back. My take on the rules is yes, meaning even if you destroy a Zombie/gorilla squad it could be brought back. This could be painful if you have just cleared a building only to have a Zombie/Gorilla Squad re-enter the other side of the building shortly afterwards. Personally I feel they should bring out a scientist character and unless you field him you cannot bring back these types of units.

I haven't got the Zombies or Hammers yet and indeed it may be a week or two before I get the revised set and some games in against my foes. It would be interesting to hear from people who have played games using buildings tiles with the Zombies to see how they actually played out. While I can sort of play test it's never the same as a real game against another human player, especially if they are competitive.

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Its more then just a Zombie against Gorilla argument.

Lets look at a Recon Boys squad, a fairly common Allied squad that most allied forces will have one or two of. They were, afterall, in the original box set.

They are 15 Points. Gorillas are 24 points, Zombies are 31 points.

Let ups pretend there is no cover or terrain to provide cover for anyone and all we have are the stats/skills on the cards.

We will begin the battle scenario here at 4 squares, just as combat ranges are reached.

If the Allies have initiative and activate the Recon Boys they commit to sustained fire, rolling either 5 attack dice or 7 if they use all their UGLs. Since the have initiative, there is no cover to move to and range is accounted for the Recon Boys commit to a sustained attack, rolling 5 dice on average they will get one or two hits against AC 3. With sustained fire that should be 2 or 3 hits. Let us pretend the Recon Boys fair poorly and only get one hit. The apes are now down to two apes. On the apes turn they move a square for their first action, gaine a bonus square for fast and then since they have no range attack make a second move action. They have now moved 3 squares and their is only 1 square between them and the Recon Boys.

The Recon Boys (if the allies win initiative again) are still at 5 members against 2 gorillas (possibly 1). If they win initiative again they decide to usesustained fire They then fire with 5 attack dice again (or 7 if using UGL, and they should use thier UGL either in the first volley above or here) and should net 1 more hit. Reducing the gorillas down another model. The gorillas may now charge the Recon Boys, with most likely 1 ape left, rolling only 4 dice of damage netting possibly 1 wound, maybe 2 at best (or if lucky 3).

Alternatively the Recon Boy could forego teh sustained attack and fire, then move one square back in roudn one. Putting them at the end of their turn 5 squares away. The apes then move 3 squares, making the range 2 squares away. If initiative conitnues with Recon Boys the do the same thing, making them 3 squares away. The apes can move a total of three squares with Fast but do not  have charge so stop short of attacking. Giving essentially the Recond Bouys a third chance to open fire with no excuse to not use sustained attack on the third time.

Now I know a lot of this depends on the Allies getting initiative, which is not tough as all it takes is the cheap Joe in the ARMY (not in the squad) to get Black Ops for 1 extra initiative die. Thats a 18 point model that doesnt have ot be anywhere near the Recon Boys to be of assistance to them, whereas any hero helping the apes has to have Blutkruz Ape and be with the Apes to help them (of course, Markes makes them a whole lot different, with 6 extra health and a crap load of combat dice and charge).

But Zombies against Recon Boys is a tad bit different, but different enough to make a important difference. The two extra models and "permanent" soft cover save in the exact same scenarios as above allows the zombies to finally close ranks with the Recond Boys with more then likely THREE zombies "alive" instead of one and 12 Dice of Attack. Killing on average 4 Recon Boys per round.

Once again, those two models and Damage Resistance differences between Apes and Zombies are worth way more then 7 points.

Now Gorillas with Jump and Berserk would probably make sense.

 

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Major Mishap said:

 

Thats the point, the majority of common attacks have the same effect against A2 or A3

 

 

Hmmm, for a lot of the main weaponry that might be true, but I did a quick survey of the cards (AFAIK, I'm missing just Tank Busters, Zombies and Revised Core troops) and it looks like about half of them have weapon lines that get their attack dice cut in half going from IA2 to IA3.  What is more disturbing is there is a bunch that are only "Knife", so they will not even get to retaliate against IA3 in CC.

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Algesan said:

Major Mishap said:

 

Thats the point, the majority of common attacks have the same effect against A2 or A3

 

 

Hmmm, for a lot of the main weaponry that might be true, but I did a quick survey of the cards (AFAIK, I'm missing just Tank Busters, Zombies and Revised Core troops) and it looks like about half of them have weapon lines that get their attack dice cut in half going from IA2 to IA3.  What is more disturbing is there is a bunch that are only "Knife", so they will not even get to retaliate against IA3 in CC.

That is true. With proper use of cover and line of sight, if a close combat squad can get a drop on another squad, it is in serious danger unlsee if has Knife and Grenade or other improved close combat weapon.

But as I mentioned earlier, without assault or charge closing the range is not that easy and there stands a good chance that even a base line unit (Recon Grenadiers or Recon Boys) will cut down a close combat unit by 2 to 3 or more figures before any slapping happens. Which is coll and all and it gives shooty squads a edge over non shooty squads, but the issue is pont values and comparitive survivabity over the slap happy squads.

In straight stat/weapon against stat/weapon recon boys almost enitrely elimnate monkeys before monkeys make contact, while zombies have the extra edge of two health and damage resistance to make it into combat with the exact same attack lines as a monkey.

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Actually, not as good a chance as you might think.  Overview of my mathhammering up through Gorillas/Grim Reapers release (including Loth to make the number of units even):

Both factions have 9 units that get less dice to hit IA3 than IA2.  Both factions have 8 units that get the same dice to hit IA3 as IA2.  Note that some of these may be just one weapon line.  For fun, the Axis have 6 units than cannot touch IA3 in melee (not counting walkers, so this is 6 out of 11 heroes + squads).  The allies only have 4 units that cannot melee IA3.

If I get a chance and this silly BB lets me get away with it easy, I'll post up a chart with the numbers for all the units I have.  No sustained fire, no holding anything back, just pure base blasting (including all munitions).  You know, Steel Rain will make a smoking hole out of any squad with a full rocket barrage.  Hmm, it looks like the Allies actually have more AI firepower...

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