Timing and Precedence

[Starblayde 0]

Milk of the Poppy (Core) says: "Treat attached character as though its text box were blank (except for Traits)."

Sansa Stark (Core) says "Response: After a player plays an attachment on Sansa Stark, that player may draw a card."

Which takes precedence when Milk of the Poppy is played on Sansa (either by the owner or an opponent)?

Timing is one of the mechanics I'm struggling to get to grips with in regards to AGoT. The timing window on the FAQs doesn't really help, and it feels to me like a case of "Cannot be killed" versus "Cannot be saved". Which of those takes precedence, for instance when The Power of Blood butts heads with Valar Morghullis in the same turn?

[Saturnine 47]

 Milk of the Poppy's effect is a constant effect, so it acts on the character as soon as it successfully attaches to it (in step 3). By the time you would be able to trigger Sansa's response (in step 5), she is already blank.

This is what you need to realize about constant effects: they affect the game immediately and continuously. Things like "Cannot be killed" and "Cannot be saved" are never at odds with each other; a character that cannot be killed does not need to be saved. And a constant effect like the one of Power of Blood acts on the cards as soon as it is successfully revealed, before you ever resolve a "when revealed" effect.

[Starblayde 0]

Ah, because being Saved is a particular action/response when a Character has been (or, technically, is just about to be) killed, and if the Character can't be killed, then there's no need to try and Save them. Got it, thanks! Best read the FAQ flowcharts again, too.

Having played many a game where the 'Rules as Written/Rules as Intended' debate comes up fairly often thanks to loose wording, the very specific nature of AGoT's cards - in that you have to take each tersely-allocated word as gospel law -  makes me feel like a rules lawyer every time a question arises. Wrapping my head around it is the next step to mastering it. Beyond that... picking useful plot cards is the next skill I need, lol.

[Ratatoskr 34]

Starblayde said:

Milk of the Poppy (Core) says: "Treat attached character as though its text box were blank (except for Traits)."

Sansa Stark (Core) says "Response: After a player plays an attachment on Sansa Stark, that player may draw a card."

Which takes precedence when Milk of the Poppy is played on Sansa (either by the owner or an opponent)?

Timing is one of the mechanics I'm struggling to get to grips with in regards to AGoT. The timing window on the FAQs doesn't really help, and it feels to me like a case of "Cannot be killed" versus "Cannot be saved". Which of those takes precedence, for instance when The Power of Blood butts heads with Valar Morghullis in the same turn?

OK, let me walk you through the process step by step.

Let's say your opponent pays one gold during the Marshalling phase to play Milk of the Poppy on your Sansa. Doing so is a Player Action, so you'll need to look at the flowchart titled "The Player Action Window" on page 18 of the FAQ.

The Action Window consists of six steps.

1. Action is initiated. Your opponent proclaims his intention to pay one gold and place Milk on your Sansa.

2. Then you have the chance to cancel that action. You have no ways to do so, so you pass up on the opportunity.

3. Action is resolved. Milk is placed on Sansa.

4. Passive effects are triggered. Milk goes off and creates a lasting effect that blanks Sansa's text.

5. Responses. Now the Response on Sansa could be triggered, but at this point, her text box is already blank, so tough ****.

 

On your second example, Cannot be Killed vs. Cannot be saved.

Let's assume the following situation.

Player A has the plot The Power of Blood revealed (Noble-crested characters cannot be killed). Player A also has CS Robert Baratheon (who has a noble crest) and KL Knight of Flowers (who doesn't) out. KoF has a Bodyguard attached to him.

Player B has Valar Morghulis revealed (When revealed, kill all characters in play).

Player C has Assault on King's Landing revealed (Characters and locations cannot be saved).

The When revealed effect from Valar resolves. It's a Framework Action, so I refer you to the flowchart titled "The Framework Action Window".

Step 1. Framework event initiates. All characters in play are lined up to be killed, so to speak. Now, the effect of The Power of Blood is a constant effect that is active from the moment the plot card is revealed (see FAQ (2.2) Plot Effect Resolution, page 7). As effects that contain the word "cannot" are absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects (see FAQ (4.3) The word "cannot", page 10), Robert is never even chosen to be killed, so he doesn't have to be saved.

KoF, lacking the noble crest, is hit by Valar's effect, though, and is bound to be killed.

Step 2. Save/Cancel responses. Now a Response that includes includes the word "save" could be played. In Bodyguard, Player A has access to a Response that would save KoF from being killed. Under normal circumstances, he would discard Bodyguard and save KoF. However, because of Assault on King's Landing, he is not allowed to do so.

Step 3. KoF is killed, but remains on the table through steps 4 and 5. In step 6 he's placed on Player A's dead pile. Bodyguard, being not attached to a character anymore, is discarded.

HTH.

[Saturnine 47]

Ratatoskr said:

4. Passive effects are triggered. Milk goes off and creates a lasting effect that blanks Sansa's text.

Milk is a constant effect (not a passive that creates a lasting effect) and is active before any passive effects execute.

[Ratatoskr 34]

Saturnine said:

Ratatoskr said:

 

4. Passive effects are triggered. Milk goes off and creates a lasting effect that blanks Sansa's text.

 

 

Milk is a constant effect (not a passive that creates a lasting effect) and is active before any passive effects execute.

Right.

[Starblayde 0]

Thank-you, Saturnine and Ratatoskr, for your excellent responses.

[ktom 598]

Starblayde said:

makes me feel like a rules lawyer every time a question arises. 

Around here, we're "rules philosophers," not "rules lawyers." 

[Starblayde 0]

ktom said:

Starblayde said:

makes me feel like a rules lawyer every time a question arises. 

Around here, we're "rules philosophers," not "rules lawyers." 

 

Surely there's a Maester's chain link for LCG Rules Discussion...

[Ratatoskr 34]

Starblayde said:

 

Surely there's a Maester's chain link for LCG Rules Discussion...

Fool's Gold Link

After attached character kneels, ask one rules question of your opponent. If he cannot answer correctly, claim one power for your house. Then, draw one card.

I like it.

[Saturnine 47]

Ratatoskr said:

Starblayde said:

 

 

Surely there's a Maester's chain link for LCG Rules Discussion...

 

 

Fool's Gold Link

After attached character kneels, ask one rules question of your opponent. If he cannot answer correctly, claim one power for your house. Then, draw one card.

I like it.

 

Me too! Easy power in my gaming group. 

[ktom 598]

Ratatoskr said:

Fool's Gold Link

After attached character kneels, ask one rules question of your opponent. If he cannot answer correctly, claim one power for your house. Then, draw one card.

~ I'll be World Champion yet. 

[Saturnine 47]

ktom said:

~ I'll be World Champion yet. 

 

 

~They'll have to create a kingmaking link first.

[Mykel The Vile 0]

We'd just got our heads around the basic concept of the game the past 3 weeks or so and then I printed off the PDF rule book yesterday and began to look into the flow charts and timing structures and oh dear me, what a lot to take in.

1st Question of 5 billion.

Player 1 Action Window in challange phase.

 

(1) Action Initiated.

 Player 1 initiates a military against Player 2 and kneels rheagal CS. 

(2) Save/Cancel Responses.

Could I play for instance Lethal Counter Attack and kneel 2 Stark characters to kill all attacking players ?

If I didnt have Lethal Counter Attack (if thats can be used at this time) or any save or attack responses and I passed it then goes striaght to (3)

(3) Action is Executed

Now the active player is executing the effects of the action, ie, a character is dying I think. But hang on ! I may of had 3 characters with a combined strength of

9 say. When do I get to kneel to defend if active player is executing his effects of his actions, ie killing a card.

Was I supposed to kneel in the (2) Save/Cancel Responses section of window. 

Cheers

M 

[schrecklich 0]

Mykel The Vile said:

 

We'd just got our heads around the basic concept of the game the past 3 weeks or so and then I printed off the PDF rule book yesterday and began to look into the flow charts and timing structures and oh dear me, what a lot to take in.

1st Question of 5 billion.

Player 1 Action Window in challange phase.

 

(1) Action Initiated.

 Player 1 initiates a military against Player 2 and kneels rheagal CS. 

(2) Save/Cancel Responses.

Could I play for instance Lethal Counter Attack and kneel 2 Stark characters to kill all attacking players ?

If I didnt have Lethal Counter Attack (if thats can be used at this time) or any save or attack responses and I passed it then goes striaght to (3)

(3) Action is Executed

Now the active player is executing the effects of the action, ie, a character is dying I think. But hang on ! I may of had 3 characters with a combined strength of

9 say. When do I get to kneel to defend if active player is executing his effects of his actions, ie killing a card.

Was I supposed to kneel in the (2) Save/Cancel Responses section of window. 

Cheers

M 

 

 

Getting a grasp on the timing in this game can take some practice.  I'll try to answer your specific questions....

First, declaring attackers like Rhaegal happens during a Framework Action Window during the Challenge phase, not a Player Action Window.  During the Save/Cancel portion of the window, you can play Response: effects that Cancel some part of the declaration of challenges.  You can not play a "Challenges:" effect at this time.  You can only play "Challenges:" effects during Player Action Windows in the Challenge Phase.

Let's say you let Rhaegal attack and then played Lethal Counterattack during the Player Action Window immediately after the declaration of attacking characters.  Now you would go through the steps of the Player Action Window and the attacking player would get a chance to save Rhaegal.  If he did not, there would be no participating characters and the challenge would end immediately without resolution.

Let's say instead you wait and declare defenders during the next Framework Action Window after this Player Action Window.  You kneel your characters and they are now defending (note that Rhaegal would get a chance to use Stealth to make one of your character ineligible to defend).  After declaring defenders there is another Player Action Window.  You could play Lethal Counterattack now if you still had some standing characters to kneel to pay for the effect.  If you did this, as above, the opponent would get a chance to save Rhaegal.  If Rhaegal died, there would still be participating characters (if you declared a defender) so the challenge would not end.  This Player Action Window is the last chance to play Lethal Counterattack.  Afterwards, you move on to the "Determine winner" Framework Action Window.  Within this Framework Action Window is the only time that the game looks at the strength of the characters participating in the challenge to determine which side wins.

I hope that starts to answer your question about the overall timing of triggered effects during the challenge phase....

[ktom 598]

Mykel The Vile said:

1st Question of 5 billion.

That sounds threatening...

Mykel The Vile said:

Player 1 Action Window in challange phase.

(1) Action Initiated.

 Player 1 initiates a military against Player 2 and kneels rheagal CS.

Note that initiating a military challenge is NOT a player action. It is a framework action. So every player has the opportunity to play whatever "Challenge" or "Any Phase" actions/effects they want in the pre-challenge player action window before the First Player ever gets to initiate their first challenge.

But we'll move on with this military challenge against Player 2 with CS-Rhaegal attacking as if the challenge was declared in the correct framework action.

Mykel The Vile said:

(2) Save/Cancel Responses.

Could I play for instance Lethal Counter Attack and kneel 2 Stark characters to kill all attacking players ?

If I didnt have Lethal Counter Attack (if thats can be used at this time) or any save or attack responses and I passed it then goes striaght to (3)

Lethal Counterattack is neither a Response (the ability starts with the bold word "Challenge," not the bold word "Response"), nor is it a "save" or a "cancel" (neither word appears anywhere in the actual text of the card). So this is not the correct place to play that event. Anyway, Rhaegal is not technically participating in the challenge until Step 3 of the framework action window, anyway. Interrupting the initiation and resolution of declaring the attacker would "kill" all the participating attackers too soon!

The long and short of it is that unless the effects says "Response: ... save..." or "Response: ... cancel ...," it cannot be used in Step 2 of the action window.

Mykel The Vile said:

(3) Action is Executed

Now the active player is executing the effects of the action, ie, a character is dying I think. But hang on ! I may of had 3 characters with a combined strength of

9 say. When do I get to kneel to defend if active player is executing his effects of his actions, ie killing a card.

Was I supposed to kneel in the (2) Save/Cancel Responses section of window. 

See the answer above. This whole part of the question is really moot because you have arrived at it incorrectly.

 

Here is the anatomy of a challenge, in a nutshell:

1. Player Actions (all players have a chance to do "Challenges" and "Any Phase" actions before the challenge ever starts)
2. Framework Action: Active Player announces challenge type & kneels attacking characters
3. Player Actions (all players have a chance to do "Challenges" and "Any Phase" actions after the attackers are participating, but before the defenders are participating)
4. Framework Action: Active Player uses Stealth keyword, then Defending Player kneels defending characters
5. Player Actions (all players have a chance to do "Challenges" and "Any Phase" after the defenders are declared, but before the challenge ever starts resolving)
6. Framework Action: Resolve challenge (count STR, settle claim, award unopposed, award Renown)

The proper place to use Lethal Counterattack is in #3 or #5 above.

 

Now, to put things into perspective, each of THOSE steps is organized into the 6-step "basic action window" process, which is:

1. Initiate action (pay costs, choose targets, check play restrictions, etc.)
2. Save/cancel (use effects that say "Response: ...save/cancel..."; nothing else is legal here)
3. Resolve action (whatever you initiated in #1 is officially active)
4. Passives (anything activated automatically by something that happened in 1-3)
5. Responses (non-"save/cancel" Response effects in answer to anything that happened in 1-4, or earlier in 5)
6. End/Close Window (physically remove anything that was knocked out of play in 1-5 to their final destinations)

 

It looks like you were confusing the basic, overall parts of a challenge anatomy with the basic steps of an action window. An entire challenge takes at least 6 total action windows (player and framework) to complete.

 

[Creature on the Loose 2]

Yeah, this is probably the single best thread I've read on this forum. I, like the OP, STILL have a tough time with timing. This explanation, in real-time game terms, is ideal for me. Much appreciated!

[Mykel The Vile 0]

Question 2 of 5 billion.

So in framework action (4) I could choose to not kneel any defending characters and proceed to action window 3 and wait until it gets round to me to play (chall,any phase) response Lethal Counter Attack.

So am I right in thinking that it could/may be best to wait till action window 3 to use Lethal Counter Attack as it gives opportunities for players to my right to play a (chall, any phase) response, ie someone triggering Greatjon Umbers effect prior to me choosing to use Lethal Counter Attack.

 

Ah ! Another question, could another player  before me use Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in action window 3 If I had chosen not to kneel as a (chall, any phase).

It doesn't have the text (chall,any phase). Is the text on LCotK classed as a constant ability, I would of thought It would have been a triggered ability as it has to be triggered.

Great thread by the way, this is exactly what I need.

[Mykel The Vile 0]

ktom said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the anatomy of a challenge, in a nutshell:

1. Player Actions (all players have a chance to do "Challenges" and "Any Phase" actions before the challenge ever starts)
2. Framework Action: Active Player announces challenge type & kneels attacking characters
3. Player Actions (all players have a chance to do "Challenges" and "Any Phase" actions after the attackers are participating, but before the defenders are participating)
4. Framework Action: Active Player uses Stealth keyword, then Defending Player kneels defending characters
5. Player Actions (all players have a chance to do "Challenges" and "Any Phase" after the defenders are declared, but before the challenge ever starts resolving)
6. Framework Action: Resolve challenge (count STR, settle claim, award unopposed, award Renown)

The proper place to use Lethal Counterattack is in #3 or #5 above.

 

 

 

 

 

I get this section now, its the player action window stages thats confusing. I can even see through the flow charts how the action windows and framework windows interact via the different phases to an extent, but then I drown in the rules as I try to remember everything at once. I dont mind admitting that I think this is really complex. I hope that in the next few weeks I can slowly get my head around it though. 

[Saturnine 47]

Mykel The Vile said:

 

I get this section now, its the player action window stages thats confusing. I can even see through the flow charts how the action windows and framework windows interact via the different phases to an extent, but then I drown in the rules as I try to remember everything at once. I dont mind admitting that I think this is really complex. I hope that in the next few weeks I can slowly get my head around it though. 

 

 

Don't worry about it, it does take a little while to sink in. I think the best thing you can do is not to try and memorize everything, but just have the FAQ at hand when you play. When a situation comes up that you're not sure about, take the time to open up the timing charts and try to determine where your actions fit in. Probably the most difficult thing for a new player is recognizing what kind of actions and effects are at play. Is this a passive or a constant effect? Am I doing a player action or trying to play a response. Is it a save/cancel? Once you know what kinds of effects you are trying to resolve, fitting them into the timing structure will be easier. And there's always this forum if you're stuck

[ktom 598]

Mykel The Vile said:

So am I right in thinking that it could/may be best to wait till action window 3 to use Lethal Counter Attack as it gives opportunities for players to my right to play a (chall, any phase) response, ie someone triggering Greatjon Umbers effect prior to me choosing to use Lethal Counter Attack.

First, keep in mind that in each player action window (1, 3, and 5 in the above "anatomy of a challenge,") each player continues to get as many opportunities to take as many actions as they want until all players have passed. Other than that, break it down for Lethal Counterattack strategy:

• There is no reason to play it in #1 (before the challenge) because there are no attacking characters
• You could play it in #3 (after attackers are declared), but the choice here is to kill all attacking characters, or to try to win with enough defenders - keep in mind that if there is ever a point in time where all characters in a challenge are removed from play, the challenge ends immediately and you do not finish the "anatomy of the challenge."
• You could play it in #5 (after defenders are declared), even if there are defenders, because Lethal Counterattack does not kill defenders

The most usual thing to do is wait to play Lethal Counterattack until just before the challenge moves to resolution - giving as much time as possible to see if you can win the challenge on defense instead of kneeling the 2 characters to play the event.

 

Mykel The Vile said:

Ah ! Another question, could another player  before me use Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in action window 3 If I had chosen not to kneel as a (chall, any phase).

It doesn't have the text (chall,any phase). Is the text on LCotK classed as a constant ability, I would of thought It would have been a triggered ability as it has to be triggered.

Take a look at the FAQ for a clarification on how Lord Commander works. It is actually considered a "cancel," so it is used in Step 2 of the action window represented by "anatomy step" 4 - jumping the entire challenge back to Step 3. It is a very special case - that is clarified in the FAQ.

[Starblayde 0]

I had Lethal Counterattack played on me last night by a nasty Stark man while my Baratheon Knights were going in for the kill on a Targ Dragon deck. All three Baratheon brothers, and a couple of other Renown characters were piling in in order to claim the six or seven power I needed to win the game (and had it not been enough, I forget the count, Marya Seaworth was going to stand Stannis so he could claim another two or three power).

That was in window #3 (not that we were mentioning windows at the time), but as the Targ player couldn't defend it anyway (having no Lord characters to counteract Stannis' ability) it could equally have been #5.

My meta tends to slap Event cards down on the table, say "I'm doing this" and then we figure out from the rules if they can actually do it or not.

 

Along with reminding/telling the Targ player that we don't automatically start in Summer, thereby destorying his entire plan, was just one other highlight

[schrecklich 0]

 One timing issue to keep in mind: during Player Action Windows, you go around the table taking player actions or passing until everyone passes consecutively.  If you are the First Player and you want to play Lethal Counterattack in the Player Action Window just before the challenge is resolved, it is not wise to pass and wait to see if other players have any effects before you play Lethal Counterattack.  If the rest of the table passes, you go straight to the challenge resolution without getting another chance to play Lethal Counterattack.

[Mykel The Vile 0]

ktom said:

 

The most usual thing to do is wait to play Lethal Counterattack until just before the challenge moves to resolution - giving as much time as possible to see if you can win the challenge on defense instead of kneeling the 2 characters to play the event.

 

 

.

 

 

 

Say for instance then, a player had knelt 3 good cards of combined STR 9 to blitz me with military due to me having 4 cards amounting to STR 9. I want to kill all his cards, then player action window 2 or 3 will suffice due to challange being resolved as soon as I play Lethal Counter Attack.

Hold on though!

So when I play Lethal at that stage, say window 2  prior to framework box 3 (where I can choose to defend),  players to the left of me now have the opportunity to play a save/cancel responses to my event  Is that right ??

So it wouldn't be resolved striaght away as someone might be able to cancel my Lethal event card.

I probably need to stop asking now and reading more and playing, its really complex.

I'm hopefully going to a group who play this or next week, I hope they can help our group, as its only 2 of us really trying to make the effort to understand the rules to any degree at the moment.

We've made the mistake of playing wrong for near a whole month which made matters worse.

Going to go over these replies in the thread again now.

Thanks for help.

[Mykel The Vile 0]

schrecklich said:

 One timing issue to keep in mind: during Player Action Windows, you go around the table taking player actions or passing until everyone passes consecutively.  If you are the First Player and you want to play Lethal Counterattack in the Player Action Window just before the challenge is resolved, it is not wise to pass and wait to see if other players have any effects before you play Lethal Counterattack.  If the rest of the table passes, you go straight to the challenge resolution without getting another chance to play Lethal Counterattack.

 

So if your first player to act, its best to go for the jugular if thats what you wanted to do in the first place. I get that. Cheers.