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Umbranus

Sound Constitution

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In another thread (i think the one about game balance) was some discussion about SC being too weak.
I myself think it is underwhelming, too and thus never bothered to buy much of it.

So now I am thinking about ways to make it more appealing.

  • One solution from the other thread was to have it give more wound, like 3, per SC.
  • Another was to just reduce the cost to closer resemble what it costs in the other games, as SC is something that gets worse the more wounds you already have. So it's not logical, that Marines pay more for something that benefits them less*
  • and my own idea would be to make the wounds gained by SC temporary damage that heals after each fight (or after some rest, like fatigue). That would make it more useful that it is now, because it helps in every fight AND gives killteams without apo an increased survivability (in my opinion without making the apo useless). **

*The reasoning is that if someone with 10 wounds gets SC, he gains 10% more, if someone with 20 wounds takes SC he only gets 5% increase.

** Example: If a SM with 25 wounds of which 5 were gained though SC (did not play DW for some time, so it could be silly numbers) takes 12 damage (after AP and T) he would be down to 8 for the rest of the combat but would regain those 5 wounds after the battle.

What is your opinion about the 3 options? 
Or do you feel sound constituion is good as it is in DW?

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Siranui said:

It sure is overpriced.

If you simply half the cost, it's viable. 3-for-1 would be a bit too good, to my mind.

It really isn't in practice.  After only a few upgrades, the price jumps to 1000 XP.  Even with just the first two SC Talents, the Space Marine typically only has about 26 Wounds - nice, but still nowhere unstoppable.  It just becomes a more attractive Talent and is good for those that rolled poorly for Wounds.

It also makes the "tank" character a more viable option (not that there's such a thing as a pure tank in the game).  A Techmarine can spend a few thousand XP and find himself with 30 or more Wounds.  Coupled with his excellent Armor and bionic Toughness bonuses, it makes him very tough but still not unbeatable considering he'll be fighting a lot of enemies with far more Wounds and able to dish out a lot of damage.

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Umbranus said:

  • and my own idea would be to make the wounds gained by SC temporary damage that heals after each fight (or after some rest, like fatigue). That would make it more useful that it is now, because it helps in every fight AND gives killteams without apo an increased survivability (in my opinion without making the apo useless). **

I kinda like this, if only because it's odd how one person near death needs a ton more medical aid than another person near death. It might be too powerful though, and immediately switches the oddity around so that somebody who took a bolt shell to the chest doesn't need ANY medical aid. Perhaps something in between, like being able to recover an amount of wounds (taken from Sound Constitution's bonus) equal to the character's Toughness Bonus.

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My ides was born out of the fluff that describes wounds closing rapidly and the superior self healing ability.

That it is rather strong is right. that's why I had stated that it's perhaps too good if those temporary wounds heal at once after combat but need some time, similar to fatigue.

How about: After 15 minutes of rest or 1 hour of physical activity the SM heals up to half his TB (or his normal, non unnatural TB) in SC-damage.
When being wounded in the meantime he does not heal at all and the time starts anew.

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I simply bumped the Sound Constitution to 2 additional Wounds and it seemed to balance out quite nicely in my games in terms of survivability. vs leathalness.

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 I think it is perfectly balanced as it stands. The starting wounds for Astartes are a lot less diverse than for characters in DH, RT and i'm guessing BC, because the enhancement and implantation that makes a boy into a towering god of war has a certain base-line that all inductees must meet.

"We need all of our Astartes to be able to shrug off a bullet to the head" might have been something said when the Emperor was first making them, and for that kind of reasoning i can see how the entire DW system is balanced around the 20 or so wounds most characters have. I mean look at things like Lascannon in the errata - They now have a minimum damage via the Proven trait, but if you start upping the number of wounds your Astartes can have they'll soon be shrugging off some of the most potent anti-armour weaponry in the game.

The main way in which an Astartes 'tanks' damage, if you want to get all MMO meta up in this bizzle, is through their combination of high toughness bonus and armour rating, good ability to dodge and parry incoming blows and potentially forcefields. Oh and nothing stops them making use of cover... i find a lot of players forget that.

So all in all, i really don't think they are overpriced for what they are - you are already more than twice as tough as a starting character in the other systems so far, so anything that increases that resilience further should cost more.

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Kasatka said:

 I think it is perfectly balanced as it stands. The starting wounds for Astartes are a lot less diverse than for characters in DH, RT and i'm guessing BC, because the enhancement and implantation that makes a boy into a towering god of war has a certain base-line that all inductees must meet.

"We need all of our Astartes to be able to shrug off a bullet to the head" might have been something said when the Emperor was first making them, and for that kind of reasoning i can see how the entire DW system is balanced around the 20 or so wounds most characters have. I mean look at things like Lascannon in the errata - They now have a minimum damage via the Proven trait, but if you start upping the number of wounds your Astartes can have they'll soon be shrugging off some of the most potent anti-armour weaponry in the game.

The main way in which an Astartes 'tanks' damage, if you want to get all MMO meta up in this bizzle, is through their combination of high toughness bonus and armour rating, good ability to dodge and parry incoming blows and potentially forcefields. Oh and nothing stops them making use of cover... i find a lot of players forget that.

So all in all, i really don't think they are overpriced for what they are - you are already more than twice as tough as a starting character in the other systems so far, so anything that increases that resilience further should cost more.

It has nothing to do with the SMs already being tough or other abilities (like avoiding being hit altogether) being more important.  The simple fact is that SC, at its RAW price and effect, pales in comparison to other Talents and Skills.  If anything, it should have been made better (half price or multiple Wounds) and the number of SC Talents in the various tables reduced.  That would make it viable while preventing someone from running around with 40+ Wounds (though, given the amount of damage that can be done, even 40 Wounds isn't all that impressive when many enemies can hit you for twice that or more).

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Brand said:

It has nothing to do with the SMs already being tough or other abilities (like avoiding being hit altogether) being more important.  The simple fact is that SC, at its RAW price and effect, pales in comparison to other Talents and Skills.  If anything, it should have been made better (half price or multiple Wounds) and the number of SC Talents in the various tables reduced.  That would make it viable while preventing someone from running around with 40+ Wounds (though, given the amount of damage that can be done, even 40 Wounds isn't all that impressive when many enemies can hit you for twice that or more).

Well i'm sure it's intended. It's a nod from the developers to stop treating their game system like D&D where more HP = more tank? As i said, Astartes are already fully loaded with wounds, if you are a storm warden even more so, so the cost to raise even further beyond normal human level should be expensive imho.

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Kasatka said:

Brand said:

 

It has nothing to do with the SMs already being tough or other abilities (like avoiding being hit altogether) being more important.  The simple fact is that SC, at its RAW price and effect, pales in comparison to other Talents and Skills.  If anything, it should have been made better (half price or multiple Wounds) and the number of SC Talents in the various tables reduced.  That would make it viable while preventing someone from running around with 40+ Wounds (though, given the amount of damage that can be done, even 40 Wounds isn't all that impressive when many enemies can hit you for twice that or more).

 

 

Well i'm sure it's intended. It's a nod from the developers to stop treating their game system like D&D where more HP = more tank? As i said, Astartes are already fully loaded with wounds, if you are a storm warden even more so, so the cost to raise even further beyond normal human level should be expensive imho.

And that's fine.  But instead of making SC so overpriced, they should have just said that Space Marines gain an extra Wound every two levels or something similar.  That would be a mere 4 Wounds at Rank 8, which doesn't seem unbalancing at all.  Those same 4 Wounds are 3,000 XP in the game, which just seems way too high.

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 I think you might be missing my point.

Wounds shouldn't be your primary tool to make yourself able to take more damage. Everyone has x2 T, so increasing that is far more effective. Sound Constitution is purely if you want to play the "hard man" marine, and acknowledge that it's hard for a marine to stand out as being hard by marine standards, so it costs a lot.

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Kasatka said:

 I think you might be missing my point.

Wounds shouldn't be your primary tool to make yourself able to take more damage. Everyone has x2 T, so increasing that is far more effective. Sound Constitution is purely if you want to play the "hard man" marine, and acknowledge that it's hard for a marine to stand out as being hard by marine standards, so it costs a lot.

I understand your point.  I just think it's wrong.

No one is saying more Wounds is what you have to have to be a tank.  It's very clear that more Toughness is far superior to a few more Wounds.  Wounds give a slight buffer, especially against those really unlucky hits.  30 Wounds isn't even a whole lot compared to a lot of the tougher enemies in the game, both how many Wounds they have and how much damage they can dish out.

So you think SC should be more expensive because Wounds start higher?  Fine, but why aren't stat advances horribly overpriced since DW characters start with much better stats than DH?  By your reckoning, that first Toughness advance, regardless of specialty, should be at least 2,000 XP since your average SM is already starting out as a badass.

That's the thing.  No one is saying you should be running around with 100 Wounds.  But compared to the prices of other things to stay alive, SC is simply not worth the cost.

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 It's a mechanical problem. If there is a player option that is so mechanically weak that nobody bothers with it, then that is a flaw in the system and -as stands- is a waste of ink.

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