"Then" effects

[FATMOUSE 0]

Are the targets of a "then" effect from a triggered effect chosen in step 1 or step 3 of the triggered effect's Action Window?  For example, if the Response on Dornish Diplomat is triggered, does its controller choose another character he or she controls to stand before an opponent has the opportunity to cancel the effect (Step 1) or after all opponents have passed their opportunity to cancel the effect (Step 3)?

[ktom 598]

As per ruling by FFG, it happens in Step 3.

More to the point, the absence of legal target for the part of an effect after the "then" does not prevent you from triggering the effect as a whole in order to get the "pre-then" part. (That's how we know the "post-then" target isn't chosen in Step 1; if it were, its availability would be a requirement for initiation.)

[FATMOUSE 0]

ktom said:

(That's how we know the "post-then" target isn't chosen in Step 1; if it were, its availability would be a requirement for initiation.)

Ah, that's right, I should have put two and two together.  Thought it was Step 3, but wasn't entirely sure.  Thanks.

Another question: Players have no opportunity to cancel/save a "then" effect that occurs in Step 3, correct?  If they do, I guess "then" effects would have to open a new action window, right?

[ktom 598]

FATMOUSE said:

Another question: Players have no opportunity to cancel/save a "then" effect that occurs in Step 3, correct?  If they do, I guess "then" effects would have to open a new action window, right?

It's probably more accurate to say that they do not have a separate opportunity to cancel just the "then" part of an effect.

To be honest, the timing of the two parts of a "then" effect are not well defined. We know that absence of a target for the "post-then" does not prevent initiation of the whole effect, and we know that the "post-then" part of the effect cannot be canceled independently of the "pre-then" part. However, we also know that a character can be saved from a "post-then" effect, implying that there is an opportunity to interrupt the "post-then" effect. Those "facts" (targets not chosen as part of primary initiation, can't cancel independently, but can save) seem incompatible if you think about it too much - but we play it that way, anyway.

Maybe the timing gymnastics are such that targets/additional costs for "post-then" effects come in Step 2, after it becomes clear that a save/cancel that would make the "pre-then" part unsuccessful is not forthcoming. That would give you the chance to save the character against the "post-then" and cancel the whole thing based on play restrictions met by the "post-then." That's certainly not an official explanation of the timing structure - just another possibility, given some of the inconsistencies inherent in the way "then" effects are treated in the game. We really don't have an official explanation for the exact timing of such effects.

[FATMOUSE 0]

ktom said:

 

We really don't have an official explanation for the exact timing of such effects.

 

 

That's what I was ultimately trying to get at with this thread.  I was trying understand how/why we allow for saves from "then" effects, but I couldn't figure out the timing.  It really doesn't seem there is real answer why other than, "We just do."  The Step 2 explanation certainly is a possibility, but it does expand the function of Step 2 beyond its current definition; at the very least, it becomes much more refined.  I'm inclined to say that a new rule/clarification is required to actually allow for saves from "then" effects, but I'm going to contact FFG on this one and see what they say.  I'll post the reply here.  As always, thanks for the help ktom.

[FATMOUSE 0]

Nate got back to me about a week and half ago.  He said that it's mainly precedent, but that your explanation does make sense; however, he fears it might be a bit too technical for many players to grasp or follow were it elaborated in the FAQ.  He said a ruling specifically making it legal is probably the best solution.