Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
IG-58

SO. The RPG, then.

42 posts in this topic

To me the main thing they would need to work out is the Force. I played the d20 system, in which Force users had to expend Vitality Points to use their abilities. The problem was that enemy attacks would reduce your Vitality when you took damage. While this did provide some game balance to keep Jedi from dominating the other characters, it does not make you feel like you are playing a Jedi from the films. Having to spend precious Vitality to do something as simple as feeling the Force to detect other Force users was annoying & often not done because is wasn't "worth it". The Jedi I played was a lightsaber combat monster, but I had to ration my Force use or else leave myself with a "glass jaw" by depleting my Vitality through Force use. It was impossible to create a scene like the ones in the movies because of this mechanic. I have faith that FFG will figure it out. happy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

borithan said:


Oh, sorry, you were saying you didn't know the Warhammer 40k system. It is a percentile system. To pass a test you try to roll equal or under your characteristics (modified by circumstance and skill). Human stats average about 30. The combat system is by no means one of the more complicated ones, but it deals with a lot of crunchy things which seem below the interest of Star Wars as a setting, and it isn't very heroic (combat can bring even the toughest guys down quite quickly, and often quite randomly).

 

That presumably explains away one of the early rumours I remember floating around somewhere of the RPG going to be based on the percentile thing.

 

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

To me the main thing they would need to work out is the Force. I played the d20 system, in which Force users had to expend Vitality Points to use their abilities. The problem was that enemy attacks would reduce your Vitality when you took damage. While this did provide some game balance to keep Jedi from dominating the other characters, it does not make you feel like you are playing a Jedi from the films. Having to spend precious Vitality to do something as simple as feeling the Force to detect other Force users was annoying & often not done because is wasn't "worth it". The Jedi I played was a lightsaber combat monster, but I had to ration my Force use or else leave myself with a "glass jaw" by depleting my Vitality through Force use. It was impossible to create a scene like the ones in the movies because of this mechanic. I have faith that FFG will figure it out. happy.gif

I think however they represent the Force through game mechanics, it won't please everyone!

Something as basic as the Force Point system from Saga Edition would work fine for me, the more Force Points you have giving you access to more, er, Force-related actions per round or whatever. I just hope they realise that, since the advent of midi chlorians, only Force sensitive characters should be able to have a Force Point allocation. All that tosh about it representing the idea that the Force is in everything just didn't wash for me - yes, it may be in everything, but not everyone can use it, according to Uncle George, after all. I think I house ruled in the end that only Force-sensitives could use them.

I just really, really hope they don't go into all that Force Unleashed rubbish. With one belch, the Secret Apprentice kills another couple of enemies, and all that nonesense...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In thinking about the previous ship combat systems, I've realized that part of my dissatisfaction has stemmed from the fact that they tried to treat all ship combat as the same system. I really think that there need to be different rule sets for starship and capital ship combats, with mechanisms to connect the two of them. Starship combat works really well with the fundamental air combat game mechanics, but capital ship combat really needs nautical game mechanics to get the most out of it. But, maybe FFG will come up with something new and innovative that bridges the gap appropriately. They've already done a lot with the ship building mechanics, mass combat, and crew management in Rouge Trader and Deathwatch (and will probably develop more interesting infantry and armor combat rules in Only War). So, hopefully, some of these concepts will be applied to whatever system they go with for the Star Wars RPG.


I can definitely see them using the system they have in WFRP. The dice mechanics, careers, party sheets, and other components could work really well with the Star Wars franchise. Even the magic system, which includes risks of being effected by Chaos, could translate well into the use of Force powers. For example, if your Jedi uses the dark side to increase his power, you must add negative dice to your dice pool, which could potentially bestow dark side effects (cards) on you.

A friend of mine and I worked on seeing how Twilight Imperium might work with the WFRP game mechanics a while back. We found that it had a lot of exciting possibilities and translated very well. So, I’d be in favor of FFG using the same fundamental mechanics in the SW RPG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

spalanzani said:

Something as basic as the Force Point system from Saga Edition would work fine for me, the more Force Points you have giving you access to more, er, Force-related actions per round or whatever. I just hope they realise that, since the advent of midi chlorians, only Force sensitive characters should be able to have a Force Point allocation. All that tosh about it representing the idea that the Force is in everything just didn't wash for me - yes, it may be in everything, but not everyone can use it, according to Uncle George, after all. I think I house ruled in the end that only Force-sensitives could use them.

Now see, I disagree. I don't think Saga Edition Force Points represented using the Force. It wasn't a case of the character consciously using the Force to improve a skill or add to an attack roll. The decision to use Force Points was made by the player who is controlling the character. While the player intends the Force to help the character do better by using the Force system, the character is unaware of the Force and probably doesn't know the Force is guiding them unless they are Force-sensitive. It represents how the Force guides all living things, whether they know it or not. And not just living things. The Force is in the "rock, the tree, between the land and the ship." Even droids could be affected by the Force. R2-D2 and C-3PO meeting up again has to be viewed as destiny and the Force is what controls destinies in the Star Wars system. I think Saga Edition handled these issues nicely because it allowed all characters (except Yuuzhan Vong) to be influenced by the Force in their actions via the Force Point system, while allowing only those trained in Use the Force to directly interact with the Force and manipulate it through skill checks and Force Powers. Notice that Force Powers and skill checks are separate -- you don't have to spend a Force point to use the Force or activate Force Powers, which again implies to me how the Force Point system is inherently different from manipulating the Force.

In summary, yes. No Force system will please everybody and this is a prime example of how we view SE Force systems totally differently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

spalanzani said:

 midi chlorians

I just really, really hope they don't go into all that Force Unleashed rubbish. With one belch, the Secret Apprentice kills another couple of enemies, and all that nonesense...

Midichlorians... enfadado.gif  Taking a mystical force & explaining it with a biological symbiote was one of the WORST things Lucas ever did!

I agree with the Force Unleashed power level being inappropriate. Good for a video game, not for a Role Playing Game. Although I wouldn't mind an expansion with high power level rules that people could use for an over the top game once in a while. I don't think a campaign like this would be true to the setting nor very fulfilling; I'm thinking for periodic breaks from a normal campaign for a little wacky fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

 

Midichlorians... enfadado.gif  Taking a mystical force & explaining it with a biological symbiote was one of the WORST things Lucas ever did!

Yes, but doesn't Obi-Wan say on A New Hope, "The Force is an energy field created by all living things." (emphasis added) While I'm not wild about midichlorians, it's not like George Lucas changed his mind about the way the Force works. He just added another layer of detail that ticked a lot of people off for some reason. It's not like we consider mitochondria separate organisms, so I don't see why midichlorians should be any different.

Woah, sorry to derail the thread :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 But all along George knew that he wanted the Force to be heritable. He just hadn't formulated how it would work until the Phantom Menace. I don't like midichlorians either, but I sometimes ignore the word and insert [genetical inheritance of Force sensitivity] in its place since that's really what Lucas wanted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Budgernaut said:

spalanzani said:

 

Something as basic as the Force Point system from Saga Edition would work fine for me, the more Force Points you have giving you access to more, er, Force-related actions per round or whatever. I just hope they realise that, since the advent of midi chlorians, only Force sensitive characters should be able to have a Force Point allocation. All that tosh about it representing the idea that the Force is in everything just didn't wash for me - yes, it may be in everything, but not everyone can use it, according to Uncle George, after all. I think I house ruled in the end that only Force-sensitives could use them.

 

 

Now see, I disagree. I don't think Saga Edition Force Points represented using the Force. It wasn't a case of the character consciously using the Force to improve a skill or add to an attack roll. The decision to use Force Points was made by the player who is controlling the character. While the player intends the Force to help the character do better by using the Force system, the character is unaware of the Force and probably doesn't know the Force is guiding them unless they are Force-sensitive. It represents how the Force guides all living things, whether they know it or not. And not just living things. The Force is in the "rock, the tree, between the land and the ship." Even droids could be affected by the Force. R2-D2 and C-3PO meeting up again has to be viewed as destiny and the Force is what controls destinies in the Star Wars system. I think Saga Edition handled these issues nicely because it allowed all characters (except Yuuzhan Vong) to be influenced by the Force in their actions via the Force Point system, while allowing only those trained in Use the Force to directly interact with the Force and manipulate it through skill checks and Force Powers. Notice that Force Powers and skill checks are separate -- you don't have to spend a Force point to use the Force or activate Force Powers, which again implies to me how the Force Point system is inherently different from manipulating the Force.

In summary, yes. No Force system will please everybody and this is a prime example of how we view SE Force systems totally differently.

Ah, Budgernaut, I must apologise for getting confused there! It's been about a year since I last had a game with Saga Edition, and couldn't quite remember the exact rules. I appear to have gotten confused as some Force powers allow you to spend a Force point to augment them, not to use them in the first place. Anyway! While I like your idea of Force points representing the Force being in all things etc etc, I'd have to disagree slightly with you also. You state the decision to use the point is made by the player controlling the character, but in the RPG the player is the character, or at least is meant to be. So the player, as the character, says "I don't like that, I'll try it again but with the Force", which I suppose is what I was driving at as it being nonsensical to use the Force in that respect when you aren't Force sensitive.

I'm sure if they were called Something Else Points, I'd be much happier!

I'm always struck at the irony of the Force as a heritable system, when Jedi aren't supposed to have kids. But anyway...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

spalanzani said:

Budgernaut said:

 

spalanzani said:

 

Something as basic as the Force Point system from Saga Edition would work fine for me, the more Force Points you have giving you access to more, er, Force-related actions per round or whatever. I just hope they realise that, since the advent of midi chlorians, only Force sensitive characters should be able to have a Force Point allocation. All that tosh about it representing the idea that the Force is in everything just didn't wash for me - yes, it may be in everything, but not everyone can use it, according to Uncle George, after all. I think I house ruled in the end that only Force-sensitives could use them.

 

 

Now see, I disagree. I don't think Saga Edition Force Points represented using the Force. It wasn't a case of the character consciously using the Force to improve a skill or add to an attack roll. The decision to use Force Points was made by the player who is controlling the character. While the player intends the Force to help the character do better by using the Force system, the character is unaware of the Force and probably doesn't know the Force is guiding them unless they are Force-sensitive. It represents how the Force guides all living things, whether they know it or not. And not just living things. The Force is in the "rock, the tree, between the land and the ship." Even droids could be affected by the Force. R2-D2 and C-3PO meeting up again has to be viewed as destiny and the Force is what controls destinies in the Star Wars system. I think Saga Edition handled these issues nicely because it allowed all characters (except Yuuzhan Vong) to be influenced by the Force in their actions via the Force Point system, while allowing only those trained in Use the Force to directly interact with the Force and manipulate it through skill checks and Force Powers. Notice that Force Powers and skill checks are separate -- you don't have to spend a Force point to use the Force or activate Force Powers, which again implies to me how the Force Point system is inherently different from manipulating the Force.

In summary, yes. No Force system will please everybody and this is a prime example of how we view SE Force systems totally differently.

 

 

Ah, Budgernaut, I must apologise for getting confused there! It's been about a year since I last had a game with Saga Edition, and couldn't quite remember the exact rules. I appear to have gotten confused as some Force powers allow you to spend a Force point to augment them, not to use them in the first place. Anyway! While I like your idea of Force points representing the Force being in all things etc etc, I'd have to disagree slightly with you also. You state the decision to use the point is made by the player controlling the character, but in the RPG the player is the character, or at least is meant to be. So the player, as the character, says "I don't like that, I'll try it again but with the Force", which I suppose is what I was driving at as it being nonsensical to use the Force in that respect when you aren't Force sensitive.

I'm sure if they were called Something Else Points, I'd be much happier!

I'm always struck at the irony of the Force as a heritable system, when Jedi aren't supposed to have kids. But anyway...

Yes, I understand where you're coming from, but I still disagree because of circumstances where you know something but your character doesn't. Also times when you know there's an enemy around but your character doesn't. Those situations seem to say to me that the character and the player are two separate entities. Of course, it could also depend on if you're a Jim player or a Ben player.

(For those not familiar with Darth's and Droids, I highly recommend you check out the links above and then view all the episodes. As someone who is visiting a thread about a SW roleplaying game, you will love this site!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Budgernaut, thank you so much for sharing those links - I've just spent a very hilarious couple of minutes looking at a few! I think I could probably very easily waste away here looking through the whole lot though, so had to stop myself. Also pretty interesting, as well. Anyway. I think my sole reasoning for saying players are their characters is based on a paragraph about meta-gaming that is either in the Saga Edition core rulebook (presumably the GM chapter) or else Galaxy of Intrigue (I think) - it uses an example of trying to cross a chasm or something, and basically says something along the lines of "you shouldn't assume there will be a retractable bridge because the GM wouldn't not put one in there at this point", do you know the part of the book? Well, anyway, wherever it is, it seemed to highlight the import of playing in character, to my mind. But the main concern of these things is to have fun after all, so I suppose it doesn't really matter how you play it!

I feel like I've lost the thread of this thread now... sorry everyone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Budgernaut said:

 But all along George knew that he wanted the Force to be heritable. He just hadn't formulated how it would work until the Phantom Menace. I don't like midichlorians either, but I sometimes ignore the word and insert [genetical inheritance of Force sensitivity] in its place since that's really what Lucas wanted.

Is the word itself really the problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MarthWMaster said:

Budgernaut said:

 

 But all along George knew that he wanted the Force to be heritable. He just hadn't formulated how it would work until the Phantom Menace. I don't like midichlorians either, but I sometimes ignore the word and insert [genetical inheritance of Force sensitivity] in its place since that's really what Lucas wanted.

 

 

Is the word itself really the problem?

No. My point is that I don't mind strength in the Force being heritable. That's fine with me. Sure it creates problems for explaining why Jedi aren't allowed to marry and how Force sensitivity crops up in lineages that have no history of it, but I think the idea of heritability was inherent in the original trilogy: "The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My . . . Sister has it." (Luke, Ep. VI)

What I have a problem with is the method chosen to determine inheritance. The idea of symbionts that speak to you if you "quiet your mind" is very off-putting to me. It also leaves open the question of how the midichlorians are able to do that. Are midichlorians what create the Force, or are they just one of the rare types of beings that can communicate with the Force? When a Jedi uses the Force, are the midichlorians what are actually making objects move as they interpret the Jedi's intentions? I think a simple gene would have worked fine (at the risk of sounding like X-men). Of course, the problem with a heritable method of the Force is that you should be able to replicate it scientifically whether that's adding more midichlorians to a being or using gene therapy to introduce the Force gene into a non-Force-sensitive. Supposedly they tried this with Grievous and it didn't work. Demagol tried to find out how the Force worked but wasn't able to figure it out (was he?). And how did Joruus C'baoth, the clone, use the Force unless Midichlorian DNA (assuming they are nucleic-acid based life forms) was also collected with the original Jorus C'baoth DNA material? (This last point is more a matter of the timing of when midichlorians were introduced to the franchize rather than hole in the idea, per se.) And the ultimate killer: if midichlorians are necessary to commune with the Force, how can Force spirit be manifest if it has no body in which to house the midichlorians?

I wish George had just talked with other people about ways to make the Force metaphysical but heritable at the same time. The orginal trilogy interpretation didn't explain the inheritance, but the prequel brings into question whether the Force is really mystical and magical by giving it such a  scientific basis. If only there was an explanation to bring both in line . . . 

Basically, I feel like it's one more thing we need to just suspend our disbelief about. I mean, we accept light speed and hyperspace and lightsabers (that sometimes have weight and sometimes are weightless), so we may just have to say this is the way it is and move on.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Budgernaut said:

MarthWMaster said:

 

Budgernaut said:

 

 But all along George knew that he wanted the Force to be heritable. He just hadn't formulated how it would work until the Phantom Menace. I don't like midichlorians either, but I sometimes ignore the word and insert [genetical inheritance of Force sensitivity] in its place since that's really what Lucas wanted.

 

 

Is the word itself really the problem?

 

 

No. My point is that I don't mind strength in the Force being heritable. That's fine with me. Sure it creates problems for explaining why Jedi aren't allowed to marry and how Force sensitivity crops up in lineages that have no history of it, but I think the idea of heritability was inherent in the original trilogy: "The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My . . . Sister has it." (Luke, Ep. VI)

What I have a problem with is the method chosen to determine inheritance. The idea of symbionts that speak to you if you "quiet your mind" is very off-putting to me. It also leaves open the question of how the midichlorians are able to do that. Are midichlorians what create the Force, or are they just one of the rare types of beings that can communicate with the Force? When a Jedi uses the Force, are the midichlorians what are actually making objects move as they interpret the Jedi's intentions? I think a simple gene would have worked fine (at the risk of sounding like X-men). Of course, the problem with a heritable method of the Force is that you should be able to replicate it scientifically whether that's adding more midichlorians to a being or using gene therapy to introduce the Force gene into a non-Force-sensitive. Supposedly they tried this with Grievous and it didn't work. Demagol tried to find out how the Force worked but wasn't able to figure it out (was he?). And how did Joruus C'baoth, the clone, use the Force unless Midichlorian DNA (assuming they are nucleic-acid based life forms) was also collected with the original Jorus C'baoth DNA material? (This last point is more a matter of the timing of when midichlorians were introduced to the franchize rather than hole in the idea, per se.) And the ultimate killer: if midichlorians are necessary to commune with the Force, how can Force spirit be manifest if it has no body in which to house the midichlorians?

I wish George had just talked with other people about ways to make the Force metaphysical but heritable at the same time. The orginal trilogy interpretation didn't explain the inheritance, but the prequel brings into question whether the Force is really mystical and magical by giving it such a  scientific basis. If only there was an explanation to bring both in line . . . 

Basically, I feel like it's one more thing we need to just suspend our disbelief about. I mean, we accept light speed and hyperspace and lightsabers (that sometimes have weight and sometimes are weightless), so we may just have to say this is the way it is and move on.

 

Thank you, Budgernaught. I couldn't have said it better myself! The fantasy/myth elements of Star Wars are what really set it apart from any other sci fi that existed at the time (or now, in my opinion). Applying science of any kind to the Force really cheapens it for me. I must willfully ignore these references to enjoy something that has been a part of my life since 1977! I respect the opinions of those who disagree with me, but I feel very strongly about this. Mystic Legacy would have worked just fine & have been more thematically appropriate. If a simple blood test could identify Force Sensitives, then no one from a civilized system would fall through the cracks & there would not be Jedi masters wandering around looking for Force Babies. I doubt the Sith could have remained hidden either, Palpatine in particular.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

If a simple blood test could identify Force Sensitives, then no one from a civilized system would fall through the cracks & there would not be Jedi masters wandering around looking for Force Babies. I doubt the Sith could have remained hidden either, Palpatine in particular.

WOW! Why has this never occurred to me before? It blows my mind. I will likely be pondering this for some time. Lucas really did mess things up with midichlorians, didn't he. Oh well -- I like the original trilogy better anyway (but clone commandos are pretty cool).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Wookieepedia (entry title "Midi-chlorian"):

1) "The magnitude of the midi-chlorian count served as a measure of one's potential in the Force, though there were other inheritable characteristics that could influence Force ability as well. Indeed, though Force ability often meant a high midi-chlorian count, it was not always the case."

2) "Midi-chlorians could be detected through a blood test by measuring their concentration in a being's red blood cells, though such tests were not perfect and were prone to fault."

In other words, testing Palpatine as a child by no means would have guaranteed the Jedi Order of discovering his potential in the Force. And of course the Galaxy is too vast for every child to be tested. It's likely that only those children who demonstrate unusual skill that might suggest Force aptitude were tested, as was the case with Anakin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MarthWMaster said:

According to Wookieepedia (entry title "Midi-chlorian"):

1) "The magnitude of the midi-chlorian count served as a measure of one's potential in the Force, though there were other inheritable characteristics that could influence Force ability as well. Indeed, though Force ability often meant a high midi-chlorian count, it was not always the case."

2) "Midi-chlorians could be detected through a blood test by measuring their concentration in a being's red blood cells, though such tests were not perfect and were prone to fault."

In other words, testing Palpatine as a child by no means would have guaranteed the Jedi Order of discovering his potential in the Force. And of course the Galaxy is too vast for every child to be tested. It's likely that only those children who demonstrate unusual skill that might suggest Force aptitude were tested, as was the case with Anakin.

I always take things from Wookiepedia with a grain of salt. The same entry states:

"During the reign of the Empire, midi-chlorian tests were performed routinely on Inner and Mid Rim worlds to root out Force-sensatives and Jedi in hiding. Such individuals were rarely heard from again. In response, an underground trade in drugs a blood treatments sprang up that could supposedly fool a test or lower one's count; however, they were largely ineffective."

According to this, the blood tests were so effective that Force Sensatives became desperate for a way to beat them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I was going to run a Star Wars RPG I have already taken the position I would ignore the prequel trilogy (and most of the EU set before the original films as well). They just don't fit with the original films.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0