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Tarkand

Game Balance: In Hindsight

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MILLANDSON said:

AluminiumWolf said:

 

You know which other warhammer products feel beholden to the wargame rules?

FFG introduced those widely different boltguns though. Normally Boltguns were pretty much the same whether Astartes or not.

 

MILLANDSON said:

Thats right, none of them.

 

 

Exactly - the fluff from the novels, and the majority of the other 40k licence games, don't use the wargame as a basis for abilities or rules because the wargame only barely represents the true fluff, due to the nature of having to be restricted to results revolving around six-sided dice.

Using that as an argument, that the RPG should follow the wargame, is a bit of a straw man.

Woah, hold on. I have to speak for Lynata here: the TT fluff doesn't follow the TT crunch itself. Sorry but you can't reenact with Calgar in the TT some of the stories ascribed to him in the fluff. Lynata's point it valid: the TT fluff sits at the core of the 40K setting. That goes doubly in the minds of veterans who remember 40K from before Ian Watson's Space Marine novel.

Where I disagree with her is that it should be relevant for the RPG. My point is that for the TT it's easy to say "Oh, yeah, and these nuns wear the same guns and armour as these Space Marines". The minis look bada** and you just accept it and play.

In the RPG if I play a 210cm Astartes with UnSx2 have to wonder why I can't fire bigger and meaner guns than what is essentially a warrior-girl. Why can't I wear heavier armour than she can? Why am I not 10x as good as an average Battle Sister given that I am a champion of Mankind?

My concept is that an average Marine should be much better than an average sister but that rare and exceptional sisters (read: PCs) should be able to keep up or even outdo Astartes... sisters on track to becoming legends unto themselves, sisters on track to sainthood.

Given Strategic Asset rules should could requisition a squad or two of Battle Sisters which get placed at her command.

Under that concept you have 3 levels of Bolters: street-level junk (DH Bolters, still good weapons for Acolytes), military-grade (1d10+7 or so Bolters for non-Astartes Tabletop warrior equivalents), Astartes grade (1d10+9 DW-style). Compensate the lower damage output through faith powers, the real strength of the Sororitas.

It's a middle-ground approach which I find most appealing.

 

Alex

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 Astartes boltguns were balanced in the errata.  As a GM I must report that the change was well received by my players, and that it has actually sped up combat.  In addition, there is no more 'boltguns trump everything else' complaining amongst my players.  It isn't a 100% fix, but what is?  

On the topic of Civvie -> Military -> Astartes weaponry, I quite like this idea and will bring it up at club tonight, although it maybe the case that it's a balance issue, at which point I would argue that such a 'fix' be left in the realms of DW, and not translated to game of Rt and DH lightly.

As mentioned earlier, it may be that the term civilian is misplaced, and that hive gang mooks and the likes should be using 'poor quality' bolt weapons that have been salvaged or stolen, instead of using the same gear as everyone else.  They need to clean up the calibre issue between Astartes and Civ as well, atm we're just considering civilian bolt to be .5 and Astartes to be .75 for the sake of explaining damage disparity...

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Sokahrthumaniel said:

 Astartes boltguns were balanced in the errata. 

Loss of average damage plus decreased chances of Righteous Fury is a nerf, warranted or otherwise. I'm sorry to pick on this, but I'm allergic to the term "balance" whenever something's toned down.

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LockLock said:

Sokahrthumaniel said:

 

 Astartes boltguns were balanced in the errata. 

 

 

Loss of average damage plus decreased chances of Righteous Fury is a nerf, warranted or otherwise. I'm sorry to pick on this, but I'm allergic to the term "balance" whenever something's toned down.

Yep.  I countered the new bolter stats by redoing the Req cost for specialty ammo, generally making them cheaper across the board.  That helps keep bolters as viable weapons when compared to other guns.

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AluminiumWolf said:

You know which other warhammer products feel beholden to the wargame rules?

Thats right, none of them.

We should concentrate on making the coolest, most awesome Marines possible, and to hell with anyone or anything that gets in the way.

The same thing can be said of pretty much any liscensed game: there is no Star Wars game where Luke is as heroic as he is in the movies, no Star Trek game where Capt. Kirk is as infalliable as he is on the TV show, no superhero game where Superman is as powerful as he is in the comics, etc. The reason for that is simple: if the dramatic liscense used in other forms of fiction were to be literally incorperated into a roleplaying game, it would be boring as hell to play a god-like, invulnerable "hero" who can't possibly be challenged by any opponent. Seriously, what is the point of an AluminiumWolf-style game where all-powerful Space Marines automatically win just by showing up? That definition of "awesome" sounds deadly dull to me...

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Adeptus-B said:

... where all-powerful Space Marines automatically win just by showing up? That definition of "awesome" sounds deadly dull to me...

 

Here are my 2 cents on this...

 Ignoring the TT necessity that all armies are balanced within a very small context and large situations are just colour/fluff and usually not even that. My view on SMs within the 40K universe is this:

- They are the best of the best. Anything short of super-specialized troops should be cannon-fodder.

- They should be as strong as the strongest alien, as fast as the fastest alien and as pretty as an Orc cheerleader hitting on pretty-boy Eldar!

What I find interesting is playing the odds and making every mission a heroic achievment. Super-special planet overrun with aliens with a ticking time-bomb noone can defuse while going into a black hole? No, sweat. Send in the marines!

IMO should be hard, should be gritty, burning fate points left and right because you're up against hordes of opponents and the universe depends on you!

Another take on this for the same martyr/dead hero feel is:

- You're the best we got but the universe is a cold, hard, place. Every fight is Ragnarok and you're a hero just by staying alive.

 

Both should feel the same, but diff ppl react differently to both scenarios.

 

Isidro

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LockLock said:

Sokahrthumaniel said:

 

 Astartes boltguns were balanced in the errata. 

 

 

Loss of average damage plus decreased chances of Righteous Fury is a nerf, warranted or otherwise. I'm sorry to pick on this, but I'm allergic to the term "balance" whenever something's toned down.

It's a nerf in the literal sense, but it was also a much needed balancing move. One doesn't preclude the other.

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isidro said:

IMO should be hard, should be gritty, burning fate points left and right because you're up against hordes of opponents and the universe depends on you!

Another take on this for the same martyr/dead hero feel is:

- You're the best we got but the universe is a cold, hard, place. Every fight is Ragnarok and you're a hero just by staying alive.

 

Both should feel the same, but diff ppl react differently to both scenarios.

 

Isidro

 

I can't agree with this more, if the game becomes to weak the players are just pushing the content aside, throw more at them. I do this all the time, "oh what you just killed that group of traitor cultist with ease?", next scene "your movement has attracted a large group of Ork's, who take initiative, and attack you." I do this all the time, I have put an escorted NPC who was being guarded by the kill team and had them just start attacking the Marines. As the GM if you see that the game gets weak then make it harder, if the kill team is getting killed then just back it off a bit.

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