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Tarkand

Game Balance: In Hindsight

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namesrever said:

An elite "normal" human like a Canoness or Inquisitor will obliterate a Space Marine, and perhaps a whole squad if used correctly.

And a Space Marine Chapter Master will make an Inquisitor and his retinue vanish if he feels slighted, if we're going down that road. :P

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namesrever said:

Game stats take precedence. And what the tabletop game says and what the Deathwatch game says are that Space marines are exceptional but hardly godlike. A Space Marine is stronger and tougher than a normal man - but not nearly to the level of some Psykers, Inquisitors, or even "normal" Imperial generals or SoB leaders. Aside from which, if you are going by novels... well, you can pick and choose your sources to get any answer you like.

TT stats are meaningless for the purpose of creating an internally consistent world.

DW stats actually agree with me. The most buff human warrior ever can maybe somewhat perhaps rival an average starting DW Marine, but it's the point where the human hits the ceiling of his abilities, whereas the Astartes is just starting out. Then, Space Marines have Tactics, and special Talents that humans can't get, and most of them serve the sole purpose of increasing SM's already considerable combat prowess.

Equipment-wise, humans need high-profile toys like Bolt, Plasma, Melta or Power weapons to even have a shot at taking out a Space Marine. Astartes start with Bolt and Chain weapons and go up from there, and everything they have is better than the human counterpart thanks to their sheer bulk. Same with Power Armor - Astartes start out where humans hit the ceiling, and they always have it better thanks to Black Carapace. The only thing humans can get that's better than Astartes equivalent are force fields.

Seriously, playing as a combat-focused human in a Space Marines team, you can at best keep up.

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Sorry, but you're flat wrong accordnig to the game stats. Dark Heresy characters start with average attributes of 30 to Deathwatch 40 - but they both go up to the same avg max, 60. (Yes, that's verage, and invidual scores run 10 points higher or lower) eventually. The Dark Heresy characters will tend to have lower scores except in their favorites, but will have far, far more skills and influence.

You didn't read Ascension, did you? Dark Heresy characters top out a little above Space Marines, but are neccessarily much more specialized; no omni-capable peeps there. Ascended characters are a very different story, being fully equal to elite Deathwatch characters, just with less awesome gear (mostly because they don't focus as much on it, and even then the Astartes can't neccessarily get better than a powerful Inquisitor, SoB, or even private wealthy fool). As an example, ever see an Ascended psyker? One of those may well be able to smoke an entire Space Marine squad instantly, and may whatever power you pray to help you if it's mano-a-mano. Better hope you kill them instantly, becuse you don't get a second chance.

However, you've completely missed the point. Your claim was that Space Marines are simply superior in every way. And they're not. They're handed a bunch of advantages, but they're nonspecialized in combat and mostly useless outside of combat operations. A "human" combat specialist can be as good or better. Melee combat is the one area where Space Marines really shine, since they have armor and strength. Even then, the Officio Assassinorum would tear them apart bare-handed.

Space marines are powerful. but they're not the best of the best except on an individual level, even with all of the advantages handed to them on a platter. You're comparing Apples to Oranges, and declaring that Apples are better 'cuz you like the taste. But Oranges might be better for you, cheaper, and good for a lot more uses. I dont' blame you for liking Apples. I do suggest you consider you may have dismissed the humble Orange without realizing how much Tau buttocks it can kick. (Err... weird metaphor, just go with it.)

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namesrever said:

 

Game stats take precedence. And what the tabletop game says and what the Deathwatch game says are that Space marines are exceptional but hardly godlike. A Space Marine is stronger and tougher than a normal man - but not nearly to the level of some Psykers, Inquisitors, or even "normal" Imperial generals or SoB leaders. Aside from which, if you are going by novels... well, you can pick and choose your sources to get any answer you like.

 

 

 

Game stats take precedence. And what the tabletop game says and what the Deathwatch game says are that Space marines are exceptional but hardly godlike. A Space Marine is stronger and tougher than a normal man - but not nearly to the level of some Psykers, Inquisitors, or even "normal" Imperial generals or SoB leaders. Aside from which, if you are going by novels... well, you can pick and choose your sources to get any answer you like.

 

 

TT stats are highly abstract. They are not representative of the fluff primarily for game balance. If you put half the things a space marine is capable of doing (spitting acid, bullet-proof bones, ceramite armor designed to resist melta and plasma, seeing in the dark, immunity to poison, etc.) then space marines would be monsters. Technically to really match the fluff all space marines should probably have Feel no Pain, Immune to poison, Accute senese, 1 poison attack in CC, and ignore the ap on melta and plasma. Now would you like to go up against a 15 point model with those abilities? Of course not.

TT is not fluff. Not even close.

As for their superiority, They are. Space Marines are not human, they once were, but they are not anymore. They are stronger and tougher by orders of magnatude, they are smarter, faster, more agile over mere mortal humans. They have (expert) training in all aspects of warfare. They are the jacks of all trades and they've mastered them all. I know you're probably one of the "I hate space marine" crowd but they really are as powerful as they are claimed. An assassin beating these guys up? Are you crazy. Of all the assassin is, it is still human. It has been established in so many stories no matter how hard you try a human can NEVER get anywhere close to what a space marine is irrespective of any kind of augmentation. You think your vindicare has some kind of advantage over a space marine who has been a scout for longer than the Vindicare has been alive, seen hundreds of more battles while a scout and has thousands of hours more training in the same skills in infinately more hostile environments compared to the Vindicare? (same can be said for other assassins) Are you crazy? I could go on for hours, but I won't.

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namesrever said:

Sorry, but you're flat wrong accordnig to the game stats. Dark Heresy characters start with average attributes of 30 to Deathwatch 40 - but they both go up to the same avg max, 60. (Yes, that's verage, and invidual scores run 10 points higher or lower) eventually. The Dark Heresy characters will tend to have lower scores except in their favorites, but will have far, far more skills and influence.

You didn't read Ascension, did you? Dark Heresy characters top out a little above Space Marines, but are neccessarily much more specialized; no omni-capable peeps there. Ascended characters are a very different story, being fully equal to elite Deathwatch characters, just with less awesome gear (mostly because they don't focus as much on it, and even then the Astartes can't neccessarily get better than a powerful Inquisitor, SoB, or even private wealthy fool). As an example, ever see an Ascended psyker? One of those may well be able to smoke an entire Space Marine squad instantly, and may whatever power you pray to help you if it's mano-a-mano. Better hope you kill them instantly, becuse you don't get a second chance.

However, you've completely missed the point. Your claim was that Space Marines are simply superior in every way. And they're not. They're handed a bunch of advantages, but they're nonspecialized in combat and mostly useless outside of combat operations. A "human" combat specialist can be as good or better. Melee combat is the one area where Space Marines really shine, since they have armor and strength. Even then, the Officio Assassinorum would tear them apart bare-handed.

Space marines are powerful. but they're not the best of the best except on an individual level, even with all of the advantages handed to them on a platter. You're comparing Apples to Oranges, and declaring that Apples are better 'cuz you like the taste. But Oranges might be better for you, cheaper, and good for a lot more uses. I dont' blame you for liking Apples. I do suggest you consider you may have dismissed the humble Orange without realizing how much Tau buttocks it can kick. (Err... weird metaphor, just go with it.)

 

I hope you are not implying that Dark Heresy and Deathwatch RPGs together form a consistent and accurate description of the 40K world because they don't and they have not intended to be. They were designed as seperate games with the primary task being to function on their own and tie-in to the other games as a secondary or tertiary priority.

Therefore any conclusions you draw from comparing Ascension and Deathwatch are not valid. Ascension, the supplement, has not been build so that the PCs you can create "realistically" measure up against the the vision FFG has of Astartes. Instead DW has been build as a stand-alone game and it is supposed to roughly scale to the levels introduced by DH.

 

That said: yes, Primaris are dangerous (so are wizards in D&D or about every other game). Yes, Assassins are dangerous. An Inquisitor is only dangerous through his social skills, his retinue. Mano-a-Mano, he won't stack against a Watch Captain in Terminator Armour with Assault Cannon. Or worse.

Desperados? Please. Crusaders? Bring it on.

Your DH characters can't wield Astartes grade weaponry without penalties and without risk of invoking the fury of the weapon. And non-Astartes weapons are pretty much rubbish.

And I won't even talk about such things as Killing Strike in combination with Feat of Strength Solo Mode Ability aka Instant Death.

.

Alex

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herichimo said:

namesrever said:

 

Game stats take precedence. And what the tabletop game says and what the Deathwatch game says are that Space marines are exceptional but hardly godlike. A Space Marine is stronger and tougher than a normal man - but not nearly to the level of some Psykers, Inquisitors, or even "normal" Imperial generals or SoB leaders. Aside from which, if you are going by novels... well, you can pick and choose your sources to get any answer you like.

 

 

 

Game stats take precedence. And what the tabletop game says and what the Deathwatch game says are that Space marines are exceptional but hardly godlike. A Space Marine is stronger and tougher than a normal man - but not nearly to the level of some Psykers, Inquisitors, or even "normal" Imperial generals or SoB leaders. Aside from which, if you are going by novels... well, you can pick and choose your sources to get any answer you like.

 

 

TT stats are highly abstract. They are not representative of the fluff primarily for game balance. If you put half the things a space marine is capable of doing (spitting acid, bullet-proof bones, ceramite armor designed to resist melta and plasma, seeing in the dark, immunity to poison, etc.) then space marines would be monsters. Technically to really match the fluff all space marines should probably have Feel no Pain, Immune to poison, Accute senese, 1 poison attack in CC, and ignore the ap on melta and plasma. Now would you like to go up against a 15 point model with those abilities? Of course not.

TT is not fluff. Not even close.

As for their superiority, They are. Space Marines are not human, they once were, but they are not anymore. They are stronger and tougher by orders of magnatude, they are smarter, faster, more agile over mere mortal humans. They have (expert) training in all aspects of warfare. They are the jacks of all trades and they've mastered them all. I know you're probably one of the "I hate space marine" crowd but they really are as powerful as they are claimed. An assassin beating these guys up? Are you crazy. Of all the assassin is, it is still human. It has been established in so many stories no matter how hard you try a human can NEVER get anywhere close to what a space marine is irrespective of any kind of augmentation. You think your vindicare has some kind of advantage over a space marine who has been a scout for longer than the Vindicare has been alive, seen hundreds of more battles while a scout and has thousands of hours more training in the same skills in infinately more hostile environments compared to the Vindicare? (same can be said for other assassins) Are you crazy? I could go on for hours, but I won't.

 

Perfectly right. A few years back GW released a 'Movie Marine Codex', the idea being that you could play the Marine you read about in the books, comics and what not.

WS/BS/S/T6 2W, LD10, +2 Sv 5+Inv... oh, and Bolter were STR6, AP4 Rending and so forth.

So yeah namesrever, GW is also aware that TT =/= fluff.

That being said... Temple Assassin (I'm not sure if this is what DH character actually become... doesn't make much sense as Temple Assassin are born and bred into the role, you don't just join a Temple when you're 'rank 8') receive just as much - if not more so - gene enhancement as a Space Marine and one of those guys is more than a match for SM in combat.

The 'problem' with Temple Assassins is that they are even rarer and more expansive than Space Marines to create. The other problem is that a Space comparing a Space Marine's strength as an individual vs another individual totally miss the point - Marines are rarely if ever alone.

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There you have it:  APPLES INVICTUS!!!!gui%C3%B1o.gif

And TT does not an RPG make....and let us not forget the Custodes - surely the pinnacle elite, and always forgotten....

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Tarkand said:

Perfectly right. A few years back GW released a 'Movie Marine Codex', the idea being that you could play the Marine you read about in the books, comics and what not.

WS/BS/S/T6 2W, LD10, +2 Sv 5+Inv... oh, and Bolter were STR6, AP4 Rending and so forth.

So yeah namesrever, GW is also aware that TT =/= fluff...

Again, can I point out that Movie Marines was taken so seriously as to literally include rules for stunt doubles so... maybe a little tongue in cheek.

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Namesrever, not only are you citing Ascension, the absolutely worst sourcebook ever published in 40k RPG line, but also the Primaris Psyker, one of the two most broken careers in this abominable book. I find your argument invalid. 

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Face Eater said:

Tarkand said:

 

Perfectly right. A few years back GW released a 'Movie Marine Codex', the idea being that you could play the Marine you read about in the books, comics and what not.

WS/BS/S/T6 2W, LD10, +2 Sv 5+Inv... oh, and Bolter were STR6, AP4 Rending and so forth.

So yeah namesrever, GW is also aware that TT =/= fluff...

 

 

Again, can I point out that Movie Marines was taken so seriously as to literally include rules for stunt doubles so... maybe a little tongue in cheek.

The point here is that GW is aware that there is a disrepency between 'Table Top Stats' and 'Lore Stats'... not how valid the ruleset for movie marine was ;)

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Tarkand said:

The 'problem' with Temple Assassins is that they are even rarer and more expansive than Space Marines to create. The other problem is that a Space comparing a Space Marine's strength as an individual vs another individual totally miss the point - Marines are rarely if ever alone.

This would be a good example of "Changing the Goal." That's not at all what was claime earlier, which is just a mite doshonest to claim that's the argument now. I'm not here to argue how things "ought" to be, just what they actually are in the Rules As Written. And those rules don't favor Space Marines in the ways claimed. Space marines are powerful, but they aren't even the best that the Imperium has created. Likewise, non-imperial human cultures were quite capable of matching Space Marines: the Imperiex fielded cyber-centaurs which stood up nicely to Horus at the height of the Crusade.

Namesrever, not only are you citing Ascension, the absolutely worst sourcebook ever published in 40k RPG line, but also the Primaris Psyker, one of the two most broken careers in this abominable book. I find your argument invalid.

Well, that's just peachy then. In response, I think I've decide that any book which mentions Space Marines is "abominable," and therefore void.

Look, if you want to make up your own rules, including rules which just say, 'Space marines always win against normal humans," then by all means do so. But we have canon examples of 
 

A. Inquisitors demolishing Marines mentally and physically.

B. Human Psykers unleashing power vastly greater than any Space Marine, even known Librarians.

C. Assassins killing Marines quite casually if necessary.

D. Ciaphas Cain (HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!) is capable of at least taking battles with Chaos Marines, Genestealers Tyrants, and Ork Warbosses to a draw, much more than most Marines can handle.

E. Cybered-up Magos actively hunting Marines.

So, to recount: Every version of the Tabletop rules supports me. The RPG supports me. The books support me. I've no doubt you can pull some lines out abut the "invincible" space marines, etc. But there's a difference between the movie marines being a joke and taking it seriously.

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First, arguing RAW is fine, but only if the RAW itself makes sense, and Ascension doesn't make sense in the context of itself, let alone the wider game line.

Second, you're missing the point so hard, it hurts.

Can humans take on Space Marines? Yes, sometimes. Does it mean humans are equal to Space Marines by any sane standard of comparison? No, because you're comparing the most exceptionally powerful individuals humanity has ever produced to an average Space Marine, and they still come out roughly equal at best.

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namesrever said:

Look, if you want to make up your own rules, including rules which just say, 'Space marines always win against normal humans," then by all means do so. But we have canon examples of  [...]
That said, licensed material such as novels isn't "canon", as much as lots of people (and I've been one of them for quite some time) believe this. See my current signature or this thread where I'm throwing in a couple more quotes from people who actually work/ed for the company.

Still, of course you have a point. In the setting as it works according to GW, there's a reason for why, according to Andy Hoare, the Sisters often get sent against rogue Astartes Chapters, and this reason is equipment equality for influential agents of the Imperium. There are differences between this and the BI/FFG RPG, though, in that the latter uses a newly invented (for GW's own Inquisitor RPG and Codex material contradict this) distinction between "civilian" and Marine gear that serves to further widen the gap between normal humans and Astartes in a way that the latter become flat-out invulnerable to what the former can usually achieve. Some people have suggested this was a mechanical necessity due to the way the stats work here, as otherwise a Marine throwing a rock would do more damage than shooting his boltgun - but regardless of the cause, it ends up with a certain incompatibility that makes the games best left to themselves without attempting crossovers.
Sadly I can see Black Crusade being haunted by this, but I'm sure that's something that could be dealt with via houserules if the group feels so inclined.

There's not much reason to argue this point, though. This RPG has quite simply been developed this way, and you will find that the majority of players is quite fine with this in that it meets their perception/preferences in a much better way than the GW version of the Marines. If you prefer GW's take on the matter, you're out of luck, for you will not find much support around here.

Speaking of, the Movie Marines rules were mentioned as a "proper" representation on a previous page... I recommend reading the actual article again, for the text makes it unmistakeably clear that this is not the case. There's a reason for why it's called "Movie Marines" and not "True Marines" or "Real Marines", after all. Preferring alternate versions of the setting is one thing, but claiming them to be the "true" thing is flat-out misleading for other people. That's how people got into thinking Marines were 8+ feet high, too, regardless of how much Jes Goodwin jokes about this silliness in the GW podcast.

When I learned something from these forums it's that debates on this topic are useless as everyone already has their opinion/interpretation and won't budge. So just game on with your preferred style and have a good time.

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Lynata Said:
There are differences between this and the BI/FFG RPG, though, in that the latter uses a newly invented (for GW's own Inquisitor RPG and Codex material contradict this) distinction between "civilian" and Marine gear that serves to further widen the gap between normal humans and Astartes in a way that the latter become flat-out invulnerable to what the former can usually achieve.

Which makes me wonder if it was well thought through that they are now creating precedent for normal humans capable of using astartes weaponry, like an alternative career rank for a guardsman in demon hunter that can (without penalty) use a form of astartes heavy flamer.

 

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Tarkand said:

 

 

The point here is that GW is aware that there is a disrepency between 'Table Top Stats' and 'Lore Stats'... not how valid the ruleset for movie marine was ;)

Meh, I don't know. It was in the US only WD and written as a joke, it's as full of references to action movies rather than the novels so until some-one from GW tells me that they meant for space marines to have the stats similar to a hive tyrant or Daemon prince then I'm not reading anything into it.

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Morangias said:

Can humans take on Space Marines? Yes, sometimes. Does it mean humans are equal to Space Marines by any sane standard of comparison? No, because you're comparing the most exceptionally powerful individuals humanity has ever produced to an average Space Marine, and they still come out roughly equal at best.

 

I dunno. There's this one guy who is sitting on this nifty throne...

Space Marines are elite genetically enhanced warriors granted some of the best gear in the Imperium but there are other ways of matching their power. They're exceptional warriors built for combat but they're not magic. Humans might never become as physically impressive as Space Marines (without modifying themselves in a similar way) but without giving Space Marines arbitrary advantages the normal human isn't going to be much worse. When you consider that some human DO modify themselves, mostly in the AdMech, then the gap shortens even more. If an AdMech Magos wanted to turn him or herself into a war machine what exactly would make the Space Marine inherently better? Both of them are essentially enhancing themselves with "gear" which is woven into the fabric of their corpus. Technology is the source of power for both and it isn't magically better when in a Space Marine. The only advantage a Space Marine gets is the same as an Ork's, but raw physical implants aren't the only way to become a power house.

As namesrever said, it all boils down to gear. Your counter argument was basically comparing an unarmed person against one with a tank and then declaring that the tank isn't gear because the person inside is naked. If you're starting the comparison from an already unbalanced position then obviously when you increase both subjects at the same rate the one who started with more stuff will continue to have more stuff.

I mean, this should all be obvious when you consider that Space Marines are enhanced humans. How does it make any sense to say other humans couldn't be enhanced via other methods and be on the same level?

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It always makes me laugh when people state that TT game stats show how SM should be presented in rpg. How many times should it be said that SM stats are like that because of game balance and for profit? If all game stats would represent fluff reality of wh40k then it would be no possibility for 'normal' Tyranids army to be field on TT and 'normal' SM army would be almost all the time represented as 1 squad and maybe Rhino transport. So called Movie Marines no matter what some people claim are SM that should be because if SM would be so weak as in TT then what is the point of them? Face Eater: Movie Marines are not close with stats to HT or DP. HT and DP stats are silly just for game balance. Lynata: why you always qoute old fluff from RT era and present it as current? SoB are no longer hunting rogue SM [sM from RT era were akin to Starcraft marines, pychos with guns and that could be fought by SoB. Current fluff SM would slaughter your precious sisters, sorry.].

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Mishiman said:

...'normal' SM army would be almost all the time represented as 1 squad and maybe Rhino transport. So called Movie Marines no matter what some people claim are SM that should be because if SM would be so weak as in TT then what is the point of them? Face Eater: Movie Marines are not close with stats to HT or DP. HT and DP stats are silly just for game balance...

I dunno, same Strength and Toughness as HT and DP (with better saves, but less wounds and 1 less attack, on the basic guy) is enough for me to call bullsh!t. 

I hear this argument all the time, I'm not saying the TT is a perfect example but the 1 squad per battle just doesn't fly anymore. Half the armies have the space marine equivalent troops the others can often have tanks or specialist troops that do a lot better against MeQ's than the basic.

Money grabbing on GW's part is what I see as not killing the hobby, is anyone going to play anything other than SM's when you need 5 guys instead of 50+, NO and do people really want a game where only Space Marines fight Space Marines? No.

To make it work you have to believe that 1 squad is equal to whatever anybody else can muster to fight ever. The novels, the fluff, nothing backs this up. It might say that 1 company can take a planet, but it doesn't say that 1 company can take ANY planet, big difference.

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Face Eater said: I dunno, same Strength and Toughness as HT and DP (with better saves, but less wounds and 1 less attack, on the basic guy) is enough for me to call bullsh!t.

Sorry but you still donot understand. What I meant was that for Movie Marines having the same or equal stats like DP or HT = that both monsters have their stats reduced for game balance and profit just like 'normal' TT SM. And that is also why I gave that example with 1 squad of SM. If TT would reflected fluff closely then there would be no fun to play TT game because Orks player would have to invest enormous money compared to SM player. Another example in the opossite site - if TT Greater Daemon would be even little close to fluff then you would need more then 1 squad of Movie Marines to even have small hope to kill it etc. etc.

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Guest Not In Sample

I don't think it is unfair to say that there is a desire for Marines to be more awesome than they are on the tabletop, and that this desire is more prevalent in the kind of person who would want to play a Marine in a role playing game.

Like I say, unless you yourself are excited by the possibility of playing a slightly disappointing Space Marine rather than ensuring that Marine fanboys are not having the wrong kind of fun, please consider getting out of the way and allowing the Marine fanboys to live out their fantasies in peace.

None of which has anything to do with the WFRP system being a bad choice for Marine roleplaying.

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AluminiumWolf said:

I don't think it is unfair to say that there is a desire for Marines to be more awesome than they are on the tabletop, and that this desire is more prevalent in the kind of person who would want to play a Marine in a role playing game.

Like I say, unless you yourself are excited by the possibility of playing a slightly disappointing Space Marine rather than ensuring that Marine fanboys are not having the wrong kind of fun, please consider getting out of the way and allowing the Marine fanboys to live out their fantasies in peace.

None of which has anything to do with the WFRP system being a bad choice for Marine roleplaying.

Nothing prevents you from doing a set of houserules where you instagib anything short of a Hive Tyrant with an autohit acid spit. :P

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Mishiman said:

So called Movie Marines no matter what some people claim are SM that should be because if SM would be so weak as in TT then what is the point of them?
Again: Perhaps if people would actually read that **** article they would realize that it specifically points out that those Marines are overpowered for reasons of "dramatic license". Terms such as "exaggerated" and "ignoring facts and physical laws" are used on its very first page.

Mishiman said:

Lynata: why you always qoute old fluff from RT era and present it as current?
That is not RT era fluff, it was mentioned in all their books as well as an article from Andy Hoare in Citadel Journal 49. It's not my fault that a vast number of Marine fans seems to be somewhat alienated from what GW has actually published and half of them apparently don't even know the average height of their own Astartes or what their power armour is really supposed to resist as per the studio fluff and so on.

But I'm not here to debate different perceptions of the setting, that will lead to nowhere. If you prefer "novel Marines" as opposed to GW's version, then Deathwatch is the right game for you. As Aluminium Wolf has rightly pointed out, there seems to be a desire for Marine players to be "more awesome", and the DW RPG certainly delivers in that regard, like one of those novels that - to once more quote from the Movie Marines article you seem to think is such a good representation - "ignore general plausability to keep things entertaining".

Enjoy your game, that's all that matters. But don't criticize others for actually sticking with the theme as laid out by GW themselves. It's a matter of preferences, and personally I find things more interesting that way.

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Lynata said:

Enjoy your game, that's all that matters. But don't criticize others for actually sticking with the theme as laid out by GW themselves. It's a matter of preferences, and personally I find things more interesting that way.

 

The theme as laid out is page 132, first paragraph of the 5E rulebook. If you want to go by current fluff, that is it. I find FFG does an adequate job of reflecting this fluff and balancing it against the needs of a RPG.

 

Question: do BL marines as in Iron Snakes (where a handful of Marines kill Orks in the hundreds) reflect that theme or not? I would say they do.

 

Alex

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