Vigilant Timing

[lahomen 0]

I was unable to find a clear answer from the rules/FAQ on the timing of vigilant.  Does vigilant occur after all responses to the challenge are over, or before, or during?

Here's the illustration:

I have Blackwater Bay location (Response: After you win a POW challenge, kneel Blackwater Bay to choose a card with the SHAD crest in your discard pile, and place that card in Shadows.) with the attachment King's Ground (House Baratheon only. Attach to a location you control. Attached location gains Vigilant.) on it.

I win a POW challenge.  Can I use Blackwater Bay twice?

[oshi2 0]

Vigilant is considered a passive effect, Passive effects resolve Before triggered effects.

So, no you would not get to use it twice on the same challenge. 
If already knelt however, it would stand first and then be able to be used.

[Yusuka 0]

 Hi, sorry to bump the topic but I didn't want to make a new one. 

I've only played a few games but I also had a question about vigilant timing. I looked at the FAQ but would just like to clarify here to make sure I'm reading it right. If a player attacks with a "Vigilant" character, that character is knelt before passive effects take place? Does that mean that a character with "Vigilant" would be able to kneel and stand itself three times, assuming that character had 3 icons and was able to win three times? 

[dcdennis 39]

Yusuka said:

 Hi, sorry to bump the topic but I didn't want to make a new one. 

I've only played a few games but I also had a question about vigilant timing. I looked at the FAQ but would just like to clarify here to make sure I'm reading it right. If a player attacks with a "Vigilant" character, that character is knelt before passive effects take place? Does that mean that a character with "Vigilant" would be able to kneel and stand itself three times, assuming that character had 3 icons and was able to win three times? 

If you have a tricon vigilant character, and win the first challenge he participates in, then you can do a second with him. if you win the second he participates in you can do a third with him.

[Yusuka 0]

 Exactly what I needed to know, thank you very much for the quick response!

[oshi2 0]

alternatively if you have a vigilant maester or something, you can kneel him for his links(or what have you), and he stands when you win challenges he doesnt even participate in. 

to be clear, there is a lot of "time" between the kneeling of attacking characters, and resolving the challenge. there are 2 player action windows, in which you could theoretically stand and kneel the character countless times through whatever other card effects you may have, he will still stand for vigilance when you win the challenge.

[dcdennis 39]

 i feel i should clarify one thing that i said earlier because upon rereading it i think it was misleading. if a character is vigilant, he stands whenever you win a challenge as the attacker whether that character participated in that challenge or not.

[Khudzlin 734]

Actually, it's not automatic: you may choose to stand any number of vigilant characters after you win a challenge as the attacker (usually, you want to stand them all, but a valar dohaeris or stoic resolve might change your mind). The same goes for vengeful when you lose a challenge as the defender.

I find it interesting that most generic keywords are mandatory effects (only stealth involves a choice - at least from the controller's point of view), while most house-specific keywords involve a choice (except loyal).

[alpha5099 71]

Khudzlin said:

Actually, it's not automatic: you may choose to stand any number of vigilant characters after you win a challenge as the attacker (usually, you want to stand them all, but a valar dohaeris or stoic resolve might change your mind). The same goes for vengeful when you lose a challenge as the defender.

I find it interesting that most generic keywords are mandatory effects (only stealth involves a choice - at least from the controller's point of view), while most house-specific keywords involve a choice (except loyal).

You mean Stalwart? Intimidate is also non-optional, and can in fact hurt you, as it makes all characters with lower STR not count their strength, including your own.

[Khudzlin 734]

alpha5099 said:

Khudzlin said:

 

Actually, it's not automatic: you may choose to stand any number of vigilant characters after you win a challenge as the attacker (usually, you want to stand them all, but a valar dohaeris or stoic resolve might change your mind). The same goes for vengeful when you lose a challenge as the defender.

I find it interesting that most generic keywords are mandatory effects (only stealth involves a choice - at least from the controller's point of view), while most house-specific keywords involve a choice (except loyal).

 

 

You mean Stalwart? Intimidate is also non-optional, and can in fact hurt you, as it makes all characters with lower STR not count their strength, including your own.

Yeah, I mean Stalwart (Loyal is the French translation). I stand corrected concerning Intimidate (that still leaves 4 house-specific keywords with optional effects and 2 with mandatory effects).

[ktom 598]

Khudzlin said:

Yeah, I mean Stalwart (Loyal is the French translation). I stand corrected concerning Intimidate (that still leaves 4 house-specific keywords with optional effects and 2 with mandatory effects).

I'd argue that you should be looking at that as 3-2 instead of 4-2. Ambush is an entirely different thing.

All of the others happen when something else occurs: (Stalwart: card is killed or discarded; Infamy: power is claimed for your House; Vigilant: you win a challenge as the attacker; Intimidate: character is attacking in a challenge; Vengeful: you lose a challenge as the defender). In all 5 of those cases, the keyword activates whether you want it to or not. In 3 of them (Infamy, Vigilant, & Vengeful), activation includes a valid "no effect" play restriction decision that can be made on the part of the player. In 2 of them (Stalwart & Intimidate), there is no such decision. But all 5 are activated (passively), whether you want them to or not. Don't confuse the fact that there is an optional resolution with the idea that these are optional effects.

Ambush, on the other hand, is a true optional effect. It does not, and in fact cannot, happen until a player chooses to do so. It is the only keyword that activates or initiates when a player wants it to.

That may be a fine-line difference, but it can be an important one. 3-2 House specific keywords include an option for resolution that would lead to no practical effect - something that only Stealth does in the general keywords. And one House specific keyword is completely unique among all keywords.