Moribund Clarification

[TheLarz 0]

Now, I thought I had a decent handle on moribund, but something came up last night that I would like some clarification on.  The scenario:

I have just won a military challenge vs my Martell opponent who has the PotS Areo Hotah in play ("Response: if you lose a challenge by more than 4 STR, kneel Areo to choose and kill a character." ).  I had a participating character with a War crest, and I have Die by the Sword ("Response: After winning a military challenge with at least one participating War crest character, choose and kill one of the defending player's personalities" ) in my hand.  I am the first player and thus have first response.

My opponent chose to oppose me with Areo, but still loses the challenge by more than 4  STR (I didn't have an option to attack with less STR to try avoid Areo's ability), and then kill him for claim, making him Moribund until all responses to the result of the challenge have completed (as far as my understanding goes thus far).

The question:  as my first response (after claim is figured) is to play Die by the Sword, targeting Areo.  Would this now make Areo Moribund until the end of all Saves/Responses to Die by the Sword (and thus out of the game before my opponent gets a chance to use Areo's response to losing the challenge) or is he still on the board until all Saves/Responses to the challenge finishing are resolved instead.

[oshi2 0]

For one, you cannot choose to kill an already moribund character. so you cannot choose him to die by the sword.

Secondly, have a look at the flow charts in the FAQ. Do note that there is a difference between the "player action window" and "framework action window" and where moribund takes place within them.

In this case we are talking about the framework action window. specifically the determination of winner and all that follows. your playing of "Die by the sword" does NOT create another "player action window" within that, as you might be thinking. It is instead a response to one of the steps within the framework action.

So to answer your question, He will stick around until the step 6 of the "Framework action window" is resolved, and he will get his chance to respond. The only way would be to kill him before the challenge resolution framework action... In which case "Die by the sword" is not an option.

[Saturnine 47]

If Areo was declared a defender, he'd usually already be kneeling, so you couldn't trigger his response anyhow, because you cannot pay the cost of kneeling him.

[ktom 598]

Quick Question: If Areo was the defender, how was your opponent ever planning to use his ability in the first place? Kneeling him is a cost of using his ability, and he was presumably already knelt from when he was declared as a defender.

As oshi said, pay attention to the fact that your "Die By the Sword" is played in the Response step (Step 5), after claim has been settled, and before you get to Step 6, where the moribund characters are taken off the table. Areo is already dead, so what are would be accomplished by killing a corpse? Your "Die By The Sword" is played in the same step of the same action window as Areo's own Response is, so there is no "trick of timing" you can use with the event and moribund to make him unable to use his ability - short of kneeling him so he cannot pay the cost of his own ability.

Moribund is effectively the "on the way out" mechanic in this game. It only works with Responses. Areo was already "on the way out" because of claim. Trying to kill him again (which, as oshi points out, is illegal) wouldn't stop anything.

 

[TheLarz 0]

ktom said:

 

Quick Question: If Areo was the defender, how was your opponent ever planning to use his ability in the first place? Kneeling him is a cost of using his ability, and he was presumably already knelt from when he was declared as a defender.

 

 

 

Because I'm an idiot and forgot he picked some low STR House Dayne knight to be the defender and then chose Areo for claim.  That's what I get for posting on too little sleep in the past few days. 

Moribund is effectively the "on the way out" mechanic in this game. It only works with Responses. Areo was already "on the way out" because of claim. Trying to kill him again (which, as oshi points out, is illegal) wouldn't stop anything.

This is sort of what I thought, but all I remembered about Moribund was that it lasted until all Saves/Responses were finished.....I just didn't remember if it was Saves/Responses to the challenge overall, or if a new set of Save/Response opportunities (created by the playing of the Reaction) changed that.  Rereading the flowchart and your replies makes it clear as to how it should be stated.....the Responses to Responses to winning/losing the challenge don't create a new "exit window" for things in Moribund.

Thanks.

 

EDIT:  Dang I hate the formatting with this forum at times.

[ktom 598]

TheLarz said:

This is sort of what I thought, but all I remembered about Moribund was that it lasted until all Saves/Responses were finished.....

You might save yourself some conceptual hassle if you modify this thinking into simply "moribund lasts until all Responses are finished." Saves have a different timing than standard Responses. You also open yourself up to some confusion in that a card that is saved never enters moribund in the first place.