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Signature Wargear armour

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Hi

Actually, is it possible to requisition exceptionnal/mastercrafted power armour, or any armour as a matter of fact, using signature wargear as, with some exceptions (diagnosticator helmet...), most of the armours don't have a requisition cost?

How do you handle that issue?

Grimtooth

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This is a slightly difficult question, I've asked it before, and there is no good response. The rules don't clarify how to handle masterwork quality items that have no requisition cost.

In my games, I assume they have a 0 req cost, and as such, players would be able to just always requisition them when the time for the mission comes around.

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Signature Wargear (Hero) is how you get master crafted armor. States it rather specifically in the first sentance.

On a related note: Space Marines are not ones to switch out their armor at the drop of a hat. Their armor is part of them, part of who they are. Hard to explain in some ways. The link between a space marine and his armor is almost a religeous one for them. It has been part of their chapter for many decades or centuries, it is a preceous thing to the space marine. Even the faults are celebrated in their armor. Turning around and upgrading a whole suit of armor simply because a new one came in with slightly faster servos would dishonor their armor and thus their chapter. Of course when your chapter master (or deathwatch capatain) offers you a suit of an even more ancient set of master crafted armor to identify your dedication to chapter or duty it is a solomn thing. To deny such an honor would be just as bad if not worse than treating your original armor as an expendable item of the month thing. Once adorned in the ancient suits it is then the space marines great privaledge to pass his armor and its history onto a new space marine, therby continuing its legacy and honoring the chapter.

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Alright, then just say that as soon as the character gets to the renown level to acquire masterwork level gear, their armour just becomes masterwork (in effect). Basically, a representation of hard fought campaigns and heroism, being seen in how much harder it is to hurt the marine. Keep the same armour history, and just gain the mechanical improvements of craftsmanship. This way, characters gain further effects over the course of the game.

If you accept a 0 req cost, there is no purpose in taking signature wargear to get masterwork power armour. Now, yes, signature wargear(hero) would provide a meaningful effect, but the intent/question here was just getting improved craftsmanship power armour. Can't signature wargear (hero) just be used to acquire artificer armour (or does artificer armour require the particular signature wargear for that)?

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I tend to not consider the "quality upgrade" for armors. Want more protection? Get yourself an Artificer Armor. ****, a Power Armor is a masterwork of its own, it should be mastercrafted already ^^

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So what's the point in Sig.Wargear (Master) with bonuses applying in the case of armour? We have rules specifically written for a setting that do not fit with setting... I am wondering what they had in mind at the moment at FFG...

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Well, any armour you requisition with Sig Wargear(master) is going to have that bonus (I don't know what it is off of the top of my head, but you have that chart right there).

Your question was do they have req cost, and I think the general answer is no, they don't actually have a req cost.  Therefore, when buying the talent, the armour has no actual cost, so you're pretty much burning the req points of the talent. I would allow for other upgrades to be purchased with the armour (diagnoster helm, maybe a jump pack), and have the thing as a whole. This is the simplest, and most obvious solution. The thing is, as my point was earlier, if you assume no cost, there is less value in using Sig Wargear (master) to get that armour.

And while fluff says marines tend to not switch armour, the events of gaining a talent like sig wargear(master) would be one of those few exceptions.

 

I do have to disagree with Redemption NL, as mechanically, masterwork power armour is not equal to artificer armour, so I find that there is value in recognizing that masterwork power armour exists, and is different from artificer armour. One of the things I found to be very weak in Deathwatch was any sort of variety in armour (sure RoB handles this with different marks, but that can get convoluted, and tends not to change past character creation). Obviously fluff doesn't support constant changing of armour, but I'm talking about variations/changes over time; basically something for players to look forward too, but not as powerful as terminator/artificer armour.

Currently, if you don't use qualities as armour, then you either have "start of game armour" or "end of game armour," with very little resolution for anything in the middle. You either have what your character started the game with, or have the level of protection near the end of the game. There are some options with the power fields and what not, but many of those are late game. And the scout armour choices are available at the start of the game, and are more mission specific side-grades than anything.

And really, this is just one point of AP we're talking about, I don't see why there should be that much of a fuss about giving that to players. Its an option, a way to spend some resources/a gift for surviving that long. As a GM its certainly within your power to give every enemy one more point of AP to negate the bonus. As long as the party continues to be challenged, I see no issue in providing further options, at little cost to fluff (as my method is to just freely give the quality upgrade to their current armour, since you know, any item in 40k gets better with age/amount of battles its seen).

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KommissarK said:

Your question was do they have req cost, and I think the general answer is no, they don't actually have a req cost.  Therefore, when buying the talent, the armour has no actual cost, so you're pretty much burning the req points of the talent. I would allow for other upgrades to be purchased with the armour (diagnoster helm, maybe a jump pack), and have the thing as a whole. This is the simplest, and most obvious solution. The thing is, as my point was earlier, if you assume no cost, there is less value in using Sig Wargear (master) to get that armour.

Items that have no requisition cost or, in the case of power armour, have a req cost of N/A cannot be requisitioned. Even with signature wargear. Thats one of the rules in Deathwatch. Like the wolf helm in Rites of Battle, if you want something N/A its all up to your GM, you can not choose said item yourself.

Signature wargear(Hero) is an exception to this rule as it specifically states you may requisition Artificer armour.

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herichimo said:

KommissarK said:

 

Your question was do they have req cost, and I think the general answer is no, they don't actually have a req cost.  Therefore, when buying the talent, the armour has no actual cost, so you're pretty much burning the req points of the talent. I would allow for other upgrades to be purchased with the armour (diagnoster helm, maybe a jump pack), and have the thing as a whole. This is the simplest, and most obvious solution. The thing is, as my point was earlier, if you assume no cost, there is less value in using Sig Wargear (master) to get that armour.

 

 

Items that have no requisition cost or, in the case of power armour, have a req cost of N/A cannot be requisitioned. Even with signature wargear. Thats one of the rules in Deathwatch. Like the wolf helm in Rites of Battle, if you want something N/A its all up to your GM, you can not choose said item yourself.

Signature wargear(Hero) is an exception to this rule as it specifically states you may requisition Artificer armour.

Reading over the rules, this is entirely right - you can't requisition N/A items.

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I think it would have been nice if Marines got some upgrades to their standard issue wargear automatically with Rank increase. As it stands, the standard issue gear becomes pretty much obsolete later on in the game. 

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I think it would have been nice if Marines got some upgrades to their standard issue wargear automatically with Rank increase. As it stands, the standard issue gear becomes pretty much obsolete later on in the game.

That's the meaning of signature wargear. note of rank in the SM brotherhood.

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Signature Wargear is cool and all, but it makes little sense to me that the same cherished hero who got trusted with an artificer armor has to ask each time to get his standard issue bolter exchanged for a master craftsmanship one. 

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We have allowed someone to take the Deathwatch scout armour (at one of the two improved Craftmanship levels... can't remember which one) as Signature Wargear. Personally I don't think it is a problem allowing people to take basic armour as Signature Wargear. They pay for the talent, and as it costs nothing they can just choose the craftsmanship appropriate to their level (and for Master get a relevant bonus). Its not like 1 AP extra is overpowered, especially as they are giving up the option of taking some fancy weapon with it.

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And actualy Artificer armour  has a req cost of 60 but can only be taken as sig wargear. 

I also don't quite agree with the the errata of no terminator armor as sig wargear. I say you'd have to have available, and buy simultaniously, the sig wargear of the armament. Not that you'd want to give up that much mobility all the time and wouldn't be better off using that sig wargear for an iron halo if you're worried about not getting killed.

As I was typing this I looked at the termy armor entry again and noticed one thing.  "There is no restriction on Upgrades or Wargear." and when I went to the Wargear section I was immediately hit with the picture of the jump pack...

And getting even further off topic but back to sanity, if you have a storm shield on your termy do you check for the shield and the "chance of the hit glancing off the armour's strongest surfaces" innate force field like effect? or just the stronger one? I'm sure you wouldn't add them together. if it was both I'd probably just roll once and do the math to figure the chance (in the case of the 55% on the storm shield and the 35 % of the termy it 'd be 70.75% but I'd round it down to 70... and still have it overload back down to 35 on a 1-10.

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Signature wargeering terminator armor... well that makes absolutely no sense from a fluff stand point... Oh and this is an RPG, so fluff realy does matter.

My point is this, you're in the deathwatch, the terminator armor you would be issued are suits from the Deathwatch. Very few marines stay in the Deathwatch forever, so why would the deathwatch hand over such an important item to a marine to go traipsing around in whenever he **** well feel like? And no self respecting chapter would FedEx a suit of their precious terminator suits half-way accross the galaxy just so one of their marines in the deathwatch can go on near suicidal missions and get it lost for all time by dying in some pit of death and purple juice.

As for the jump pack on a terminator suit... NO, just no. For one thing it doesn't happen, ever. Even if there was ever a reference in the fluff, which there isn't (because you can't do it, and thats what GW says so don't yell at me) a terminator suit is over two times heavier than power armor, not including the very heavy "heavy class" weapons you may mount on it. I doubt any jump pack would be able to boost around a marine in terminator armor. To even get a marine in power armor off the ground would take a massive amount of power. Please, is it too much to ask for a little common sense in these things?

And no, you can't combine force fields together to make one more powerful. If you consider the terminator's deflection ability a 'force field' and you take a storm shield its one or the other. As a side, one of the things our group has decided is true force fields will try to block an attack before it hits. So you'd roll the power field on every attack before attempting to dodge/parry. A terminator's deflection isn't a true force 'field' as shots bounce off the armor. So, in terminator armor we only roll to see if the field rating blocks an attack after it hits, i.e. after any parry attempts. We've also discussed the possibility of this being an exception to the "two field" rules as the suit's armor isn't a "field" that can be turned on/off. We've toyed with the idea of allowing a second deflection roll on any attack the force field did not block to represent the armor still deflecting the shot. This is because of the rediculous limitations terminator armor give you. It really is only effective in certain situations.

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Why does'nt sig wargear termy armour work? By the time you could do it you're either rank 7 and haven't bought a single piece of sig wargear before this, or you're a Deathwatch Champion who has earned the Crux Terminatus using both of those nice hero wargears to get it.  Either way you're not just your average space marine to be entrusted with something so valuable. You would be limiting yourself so much by doing it most wouldn't even consider it, but I can easily see it happening in special cases.  Yes it's rare, but isn't the entire first company standardly outfitted in terminator armour? This means there is far more of it than a specific unique relic that you could also take as sig wargear.

My point on the force fields was specificaly for the storm shield on termy armour as that's fairly standard.  Do the rules actualy say how you handle that?

(I also don't think you should put a jump pack on termy armour but I was just pointing out my horror that it basicaly said you could with the way it was stated in the book. hence the 'back to sanity' line.)

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Well, as you need 100 points to get Terminator armour you can never afford it with Signature wargear. You always have to buy it with weapons. You can't just count the 60 points of the armour.

 

Also 1st company are not equipped with terminator armour as standard. Veterans normally go into the field in power armour. They just have the option of Terminator armour in very specific instances.

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Nathiel said:

My point on the force fields was specificaly for the storm shield on termy armour as that's fairly standard.  Do the rules actualy say how you handle that?

The first line under "Field Rules" on page 166 of the main rulebook state, "A character may only benefit from one field at a time, regardless of how many different fields he may have equipped." [sic] So if you were a chaplain with a rosarius and requisitioned a storm shield and somehow got an iron halo too, you'd only be able to use one of the three. Now if one of them overloaded you could switch to another one of course. The reasoning is two different fields interfere with each other and at best cancel each other out, at worst explode in huge release of field energy (killing you).

The reason our group has discussed the different ways of handling the terminator deflection rating is because it isn't a force field. Its just huge slabs of adamantite and ceramite deflecting attacks off of it. You can't turn it on/off and there is no "field" of power, its just there.

 

Also as borithan said, terminator armor is really a specialised item. Its good when used in its element. Primarily close quarters say in a space hulk or boarding action. Specifically where the suit's protection vastly outweighs its lack of speed and maneuverability.

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herichimo said:

The reason our group has discussed the different ways of handling the terminator deflection rating is because it isn't a force field. Its just huge slabs of adamantite and ceramite deflecting attacks off of it. You can't turn it on/off and there is no "field" of power, its just there.

There's no reason to discuss it, that's exactly what's written in the book. The force field for the Terminator armor merely represents the possibility of a shot simply deflecting off of the surface of the armor.

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herichimo said:

I meant allowing the deflection save in addition to a field save. As the field rules only allow one field at a time, though the terminator's normal "field" isn't really a field.

Bad idea. If you have another field, then it's already better than what Terminator gives you, and having a constant, never overloading field as backup is enough for an advantage. If you allow two field saves, it's going to get ridiculous double quick.

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Back to the OP or rather closer to the original statement and follow up about sig wargear master in relation to armour. I see one right out and that would be a diagnostor helmet for the Apothecary. Master crafted will get you the extra AP on the head and the master wargear bonus to dodge could help you survive to treat your battle brothers. and lets not forget that the force fields are in the larger Armour section, so a master crafted combat shield or an Iron Halo would fit nicely in the Master sig wargear. A force field and a bonus to dodge would be great for just about anyone.

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I haven't managed to shell out for Deathwatch, yet, but was wondering, is the higher armor worth it? How good is Artificer Armor? I sort of want to stat out some existing characters for DH: Ascension, and one of them wears art. armor (like L. Inq. Coteaz), but I don't know what it stats as, and DW will be out of reach for a while. I assume its like AP 10, half P. Armor weight, but that's a guess.

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Well, in DW, the base armour is like.... AP 8 on all areas except body, and AP 10 on body.

 

Artificer armour is like what, 12 AP all over, and termie is like AP 14? Its been a while since I looked, its a fairly large increase though.

Weight of the armour is largely irrelevant, as marines can carry as much as they need pretty much.

Finally, yes, the other armours are definitely worth it in DW, artificer especially is a vast improvement (more because it offers two histories).

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