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Stag Lord

Who is Azor Ahai Reobern? (ADWD spoilers)

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Maester_LUke said:

 I'm particularly curious to see who is chosen as the new Lord Commander.  I hadn't seen the "death" coming (even if 998th seemed like an ominous numbering), and I do appreciate the notion that his "watch has ended."  I guess the legal ramifications of having been presumed dead are more than I'm ready to contemplate at this late hour.

 

So you think the 999th commander of the nightwatch will be Ser Alliser Thorne. Than he will obviously do some folly start a quarrel with the wildlings that already passed the wall. In that quarrel a lot of wildlings and nightwatch folk will die and become white walkers (south of the wall). Jon will be ressurected in some way or another and would become the 1000th commander of the nightwatch to unite the powers of the nightwatch and the wildings to fight against the common foe.

Besides that i really like the idea that his watch ends with his death and he´s free for some other service . But what should he do than? I mean will the northern lords accept a ressurected bastard of the North introduced by Melisandre and his grace King Stannis ? 

I also think Azor Ahai mustn´t  necessarily fulfill the oracle/ story of being born under special circumstances etc. Maybe he/she is just a leader, a player in the game of thrones.... maybe Melisandre misread the flames. I would like to see some person become Azor Ahai besides the obvious choices maybe Victarion Greyjoy, Bran Stark  (...). 

  

 

 

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JerusalemJones said:

While we're on the topic of bizarre theories, who says that there can only be one Azor Ahai? Jon currently fits the bill (provided he is resurrected), Dany fits the bill, Stannis...sorta...fits the bill.

Agreed, if the prophecy can be misread as the "Prince that was Promised" instead of the "Princess that was Promised" couldn't it just as easily be the "Princes that were Promised"

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 If Mel does give Jon the red kiss, I do not see any threat of 'zobiefication', or 'turning evil' as others have mentioned.  Beric was resurrected several times without any seeming change to his personality or wits.  Cat was different - but, we were provided with a reason for that - she had been dead for several days when they found her & brought her back.  Mel should be able to get to Jon fairly quickly.  Add in the Warg factor, and there's no 'off' time for Jon's brain/personality - I don't see that as a problem.  The bigger question would be - how does that play out?  With Beric it was always as if his wounds weren't as bad as thought - with Jon, that would still make him Lord Commander, unless Mel hides him.  

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I can't wait to see how everything plays out with around the Wall after Jon's stabbing. Wun Wun rampaging, the Watch leaderless, the Wildling army berzerk to go get Mance.

Pure chaos and plenty o' killing.

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Old Ben said:

So you think the 999th commander of the nightwatch will be Ser Alliser Thorne.
Besides that i really like the idea that his watch ends with his death and he´s free for some other service . But what should he do than? I mean will the northern lords accept a ressurected bastard of the North introduced by Melisandre and his grace King Stannis ?

I also think Azor Ahai mustn´t necessarily fulfill the oracle/ story of being born under special circumstances etc. Maybe he/she is just a leader, a player in the game of thrones.... maybe Melisandre misread the flames. I would like to see some person become Azor Ahai besides the obvious choices maybe Victarion Greyjoy, Bran Stark (...).

I don't think I suggested Thorne anywhere in my comment, in fact I doubt who's got the combined popularity, let alone who's going to take charge of organizing the elections without Stannis around to provide from structure. Although a thousand years from now, this will make a great story to add to the Night King and all the other legends.

I don't really think there's a parallel in the reaction to a "red-kissed" Jon. As you say, Jason, there's a big difference between being stabbed to death in front of a room of people and taking a "mortal wound" in battle. (Could Beric have returned from a beheading? Perhaps we should ask the Kurgan... I mean Gregor). I'm really not prepared to speculate on the mechanism of the Red Kiss, or even if Mel and Thoros are truly using the same source of power. If they let her get to him swiftly, before his body is cold, perhaps they could play it off as "not so serious." (But freakish, like Connor MacLeod after his first battle) Anything longer than that, I think they'll see it as blackest sorcery, and Jon will be more widely reviled in the manner of Ser Aliser Thorne.

I did have the weird thought on my drive home from GenCon. What if, in an attempt to subvert the normal convention and the audience' expectations, Jon never makes it out of Ghost. There is a living child of Eddard Stark who lost her Direwolf before she ever connected with it like the others. She seems to have actual thoughts of concern about him (admittedly, because she thinks her three "true" brothers are dead), perhaps they have a "team up" in an entirely unexpected fashion and manage to keep Jon present in Wolf for the long term.
 

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Maester_LUke said:

Old Ben said:

So you think the 999th commander of the nightwatch will be Ser Alliser Thorne.
Besides that i really like the idea that his watch ends with his death and he´s free for some other service . But what should he do than? I mean will the northern lords accept a ressurected bastard of the North introduced by Melisandre and his grace King Stannis ?

 

I also think Azor Ahai mustn´t necessarily fulfill the oracle/ story of being born under special circumstances etc. Maybe he/she is just a leader, a player in the game of thrones.... maybe Melisandre misread the flames. I would like to see some person become Azor Ahai besides the obvious choices maybe Victarion Greyjoy, Bran Stark (...).

 

I don't think I suggested Thorne anywhere in my comment, in fact I doubt who's got the combined popularity, let alone who's going to take charge of organizing the elections without Stannis around to provide from structure.  

Ser Alliser Thorne was of course my free interpretation. I think it could also make sense since he´s been one of Jon´s strongest opposers in the nightwatch. I would also bet that he had his hands in this revolt against Jon.  

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 I think maybe the assumption that the Nights Watch turned against Jon may not pan out.  

From my reading, and the descriptions of the people stabbing him and whom did the stabbing I think it may be the work of the other Skinchanger.  The roar that went up when he read Ramsay's letter didn't seem to implicitly imply disapproval.  I may need to read it again but it seemed to me that the level of confusion in that scene made it seem like everyone was kind of out of their wits over what was going on.  It's possible it was the other Skinchanger jumping around in bodies and stabbing Jon.  We will see.

One of the prevailing and oft repeated lessons of the story is... Don't leave your Direwolf.

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 Agree that Jon is the most obvious answer, and perhaps one of the very few people with anything that resembles plot armour (his parents and the long associated who they are is all a bit moot if he is dead without coming back).

Having re-read his final chapter i really like the way the prophecy is seemingly completed by the tears/shield etc. 

"From my reading, and the descriptions of the people stabbing him and whom did the stabbing I think it may be the work of the other Skinchanger.  The roar that went up when he read Ramsay's letter didn't seem to implicitly imply disapproval.  I may need to read it again but it seemed to me that the level of confusion in that scene made it seem like everyone was kind of out of their wits over what was going on.  It's possible it was the other Skinchanger jumping around in bodies and stabbing Jon.  We will see."

Got to disagree as my gut reaction was the same group of malcontent nights watch who opposed Jon's every move on the grounds that it went against what they thought the NW stood for.

"One of the prevailing and oft repeated lessons of the story is... Don't leave your Direwolf."

On this i totally agree.

Im hoping he is restored to his actual body eventually, it wouldn't feel right to me if he suddenly wasn't Jon Snow any more. Although i dont think that he is actually dead yet (although he may well be) so he may well be saved my conventional techniques.

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Greyhame said:

 I think maybe the assumption that the Nights Watch turned against Jon may not pan out.  

From my reading, and the descriptions of the people stabbing him and whom did the stabbing I think it may be the work of the other Skinchanger.  The roar that went up when he read Ramsay's letter didn't seem to implicitly imply disapproval.  I may need to read it again but it seemed to me that the level of confusion in that scene made it seem like everyone was kind of out of their wits over what was going on.  It's possible it was the other Skinchanger jumping around in bodies and stabbing Jon.  We will see.

One of the prevailing and oft repeated lessons of the story is... Don't leave your Direwolf.

 

When that Roar went up he noticed Bowen Marsh and the others turn and slink out mof the hall.  A lot of people were happy with Johns decision.  the people that stabbed him based on the entire text of ADWD would not be among them.

 

i think Jon is going to be AA reborn, from his dream of his black ice armor, to Mel seeing him and the reborn under a bleeding star i think it has to be Jon Targaryen

 

but who will the three heads be because i do not think Jon will be one of them,  i think now it will probably be Dany, Aegon and Tyrion (gasppp)  i know i know

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Melisandre's POV in ADWD, where she's just tried to see the future in the flames, gives us a thought something along the lines of "I prayed for a vision of my prince [Azor Ahai] and all I was shown was [Jon] Snow".

Well, Mel, you did ask for AA...

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madkasel said:

RJM said:

Don't forget the conspicuously inconspicuous crappy looking horn that was found stashed with the buried obsidian daggers and arrowheads Jon previously found beyond the wall wrapped in a black cloak, and that we haven't heard anything about for a couple books.

 

 

 

Good point. The Purloined Horn... hiding in plain site.

 

OT: The crappy looking horn was given from Sam to the Summer Islanders as payment for the passage from braavos to oldtown ;-) I think it would really be almost impossible that this horn return from some random captain to the wall...

 

But in reading here and on the wiki (awoiaf) I don't see no one pointing to Beric. I really was convinced that AA was Beric. He was born again (returning for the first time) when the comet was active, and his sword it really catches fire (is not cold, as the one of Stannis, that made Aemon doubt about Stannis being AA). But now....well, that's the fun eheh

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 the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that we have already witnessed the reborn of AA: the pyre of dead Drogo and the birth of the dragons. Think about it: the prophecy says "under a bleeding star" and in the same chapter Daenery wait for the first star to light up the fire and when she see the comet the book says:" The first star was a comet, burning red. Bloodred; fire red; the dragon’s tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign.". Then we see that she effectively awake dragon from stone, and the salt and smoke part refers to the desert (arid and desolate) or maybe the sweat/tears and the smoke of the pyre. And it is in this moment that Dany fullfill her destiny as mother of dragons and becomes the prince that was promised, the sword against the darkness. she is no child no more...she is born again as AA...

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JerusalemJones said:

.

But I do think Stag has the right of it. Mel will bring back Jon, because he truly does have too much story left to him. The big question is how does she keep him safe, after we know that the brothers of the Watch have turned on him. And for a truly stupid reason. Jon is preparing the wall for when the Others come. Yet the old members can only see the wildlings as a threat, not as an ally. Perhaps they see them as the only threat, that the wights are easily dealt with, and that the Others are no more than a myth. Whatever the real reason, whatever the provocation, there are members of the Watch who would likely just kill Jon again, based on their actions in his last chapter.

 

I'm not totally convinced Jon is even dead.  Whatever happens though, Jon has legions of wildlings that are indebted to him and may just turn on the Crows with Jon out of the picture.  Secondly, there are still a lot of Crows loyal to Jon.  When Jon wakes up or is brought back, things will be different, but he will still be Jon and I'm fairly certain Mel will be the one who protected him with the queens men and wildings and crow loyalists.

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SummerSeaCaptain said:

madkasel said:

 

RJM said:

Don't forget the conspicuously inconspicuous crappy looking horn that was found stashed with the buried obsidian daggers and arrowheads Jon previously found beyond the wall wrapped in a black cloak, and that we haven't heard anything about for a couple books.

 

 

 

Good point. The Purloined Horn... hiding in plain site.

 

 

 

OT: The crappy looking horn was given from Sam to the Summer Islanders as payment for the passage from braavos to oldtown ;-) I think it would really be almost impossible that this horn return from some random captain to the wall...

The horn was one of the few things that Sam got to keep (because it was broken, i assume, as the story uses that term). So Sam still has it with him at the Citadel.

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 @ SummerSeaCaptain: I too was convinced that AA was Dany, then I read ADwD and tought that Jon is a viable candidate too (big fan of the R+L=J theory).

Then I remembered this part of the prophecy: "There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

What if Jon is AA and the burning sword is Dany with her dragons? After all, she emerged from the fire...

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After reading Jon's death(?) scene, the primary thing I was worried about was that he would instantly slip into the body of Ghost, particularly because of what I saw as foreshadowing with Varamyr Sixskins in the ADWD prologue.  After talking this out with some other folks though, I feel like the Prologue had a bit more to do with the foreshadowing of Bran's storyline in the hill, and his learning to control and evolve his warg'ing, and less to do with Jon.  The more I think about it, the more it seems that Melisandre will use the Fiery Kiss to bring Jon back from death's door, essentially making him Azor Ahai Reborn.

Looking closely, George R.R. Martin never makes generic choices when wording himself.  He makes a point of describing Jon's wounds as 'smoking', and also makes a point of noting the tears in Bowen Marsh's eyes as he stabs Jon.  There's your salt and smoke right there.  Question is, if it all goes down like that, what does Jon do next?

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RJM said:

 

 

 

Don't forget the conspicuously inconspicuous crappy looking horn that was found stashed with the buried obsidian daggers and arrowheads Jon previously found beyond the wall wrapped in a black cloak, and that we haven't heard anything about for a couple books.



Ive been convinced for Years that Sam has had the horn of Winter all along. Thing is, The Wall HAS to come down. It MUST. So much effort has been applide to explaining that no matter how scarry the Others are they simply Can't cross The Wall. So how are we meant to get our big epic dragon v wight showdown if The Wall stays put?

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I'm going to be the very, very, very small majority in my idea on who Azor Ahai Reborn is and more than likely is completely wrong because there's few connections to the prophecy and the character himself… Also, I'm REALLY, REALLY reaching here as most of what needs to be fullfilled needs to occur in the next book before it could be possible at all.

 

I think it's Rickon Stark.

 

For one thing, he's apparently at Skagos. So he's north of the Wall. "Skagos" in the Old Tongue means "stone". Viserion & Rhaegal are now loosed in the world, but I believe Rhaegal made his home inside a pyramid while Viserion is elsewhere. Lord Manderly has sent Ser Davos to retrieve Rickon from Skagos after Wex Pyke told him about his whereabouts.

 

What if Viserion arrives after flying from the East and befriends Rickon in the same way that Jon & Ghost are united with a bond. And begins to skinchange into Viserion effectively "taming" him. Ser Davos arrives and things get heated near the water. Rickon is, by force, thrown into Davos' ship and Viserion in a fit of rage attacks and sprays fire around the ship but Davos and his men somehow "slay" Viserion as he falls from the sky leaving a fiery spray above with his blood falling in a trail behind him. Rickon within the heat of the moment tries to skinchange into Viserion and brings the dragon back to life on the land.

 

Rickon would then be amidst salt (the sea surrounding him) and smoke (the fire Viserion sprayed around him still smoking from the boat itself). Viserion would be "awoke" (brought back by Rickon skinchanging to help him) from stone (Skagos meaning 'stone' and is the land Viserion's body fell on). And the blood in the air amidst the smoke in the air would be a "blood star" of sorts.

 

And in doing so maybe some sort of inner magic is uncovered inside him and Davos realizes he's the real Azor Ahai? And in the final book, the Others are invading Westeros and Rickon returns with Davos, retrieves the fragmented Lightbringer from Stannis' dead body as in Viserion's final moments is used as the sacrifice to complete the sword. Rickon then becomes Azor Ahai.

 

Again, a ridiculously long stretch and reach for that one… but with George R.R.'s writing style for "surprise", it wouldn't shock me in the least for this to come out of left field and happen. Rickon has been left out for such a very long time, his character needs to have some sort of higher meaning in the end… Everyone else has served a purpose in one way or another.

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SummerSeaCaptain said:

 

OT: The crappy looking horn was given from Sam to the Summer Islanders as payment for the passage from braavos to oldtown ;-) I think it would really be almost impossible that this horn return from some random captain to the wall…

~ Gee, if only there were several interested, targaryen or otherwise, parties around Essoss who are trying to get West…

I would LOVE if Tohbo Mott was related to Jhalabar Xho and thats how the horn ended up in Westeros. I am Convinced Xho has a big part to play =P

What do we think of the idea that the reason that so many people seem to satisfy the prophecy is that there are multiple Azor Ahais (Azor Ahaii? Azor Ahaits?)

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 Jon is AA reborn.

mel has never been able to do the red kiss, I'm sure she said that in the books (but I can't remember where) but she told Jon that her powers have increased since coming to the wall. I like the idea of the wall bringing Jon back from the dead, via mel, to continue his fight against the others.

the prophecy about AA said "after a long summer" and the summer officially ended, by white raven, in the last few pages of ADWD. So we can assume that AA hasn't been reborn yet.

the waking dragon from stone refers to jon's parentage.

Snow is the bastard name in the north, but Jon wasn't born in the north and was only given that name because everyone though a stark was his dad.

If Jon finds out his true parentage then his bastard name would be Stone and not Snow. If Jon was legitimised, thanks Robb, then he would go from Stone to Dragon (Targ).

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 The term "waking the dragon" was used a lot in the first book to describe the madness found in targaryen blood, and a few times Jon has shown that he has a temper. Maybe bringing back Jon using the red kiss would make his blood madness come into play, just like beric and cat lost themselves when they came back, and that is what "waking the dragon from stone" refers to.

with possibly 3 targaryen's running around, each more perfect than the last, and not a sign of madness between them it's about time one went a a bit nuts. I like the idea of a perfect character going a bit bad, it would be a nice compliment to Jamie's reformation.

 

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