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UncleArkie

Wall of Steel + Step Aside?

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Simple question, do they stack in such a way that if I have both I would be able to: parry (normal reaction), parry (bonus reaction from wall of steel) + dodge (bonus reaction from step aside)?

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This is without checking the book, but as I understand it, both talents grant you a "bonus" Reaction that can only be used for parrying/dodging. So, yes. You would have a total of three Reactions with both those talents, one of which has to be used to Dodge and the other must be used to Parry, allowing you three "avoidance" actions.

It might sound a little OP but it's nothing compared to Ascension, which had talents like "you gain extra Reactions equal to your Agility bonus."

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Be careful that you can still only use one Reaction per attack you want to avoid, i.e. you can't try to parry an attack, fail and then decide to parry with the Reaction from Wall of Steel ;)

But aside from that, it's very powerful.

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Yer I quite randomly played in an Ascended DH game over the weekend with an Astartes Character, he kicked a little too much ass (turned the melee assassion into pulp in a mock fight, space wolf assault marines are OP).

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UncleArkie said:

Yer I quite randomly played in an Ascended DH game over the weekend with an Astartes Character, he kicked a little too much ass (turned the melee assassion into pulp in a mock fight, space wolf assault marines are OP).

It depends entirely on the character build, but you're right in that Assault Marines (including Space Wolves) are nasty.  Of course, I've seen Vindicare Assassins with 12 Dodge Reactions, each at over 90%.  That can be pretty nasty, too, especially if it's someone who can easily put a bullet in an enemy's head from a kilometer away.

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Yup. Don't forget that the Assault Marine only has one Reaction and Swift Attack at Rank 1! Whereas the Assassin is likely to have at least Steap Aside (iirc) and Lightning Attack when he gets to Ascension.

And I'm not taking into account Vindi-brokens. They are utterly cheating :)

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The assassins dodge doesn't mean a thing, first he the took 2 attack from the assassin that did little damage, then the wolf spends a fate point on making his attacks unparry and unblockable in that round, lightning attack (from a deed) and he pounds him in the face with a chain sword and took away 90% of his wounds in the first hit, killed him dead by the second. That pretty much recycled over and over. It becomes even more unpretty if he uses the jump pack to move away from the assassin after he attacks, then he bounces out of bolt pistol range and back in for every attack.

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UncleArkie said:

It becomes even more unpretty if he uses the jump pack to move away from the assassin after he attacks, then he bounces out of bolt pistol range and back in for every attack.

How? He surely doesn't have Assassin's Strike, does he?

Whereas the Assassin can, I'm quite sure of that.

And here you're just taking a Vindicare who doesn't have a long range weapon, too bad ;) And against normal enemies, there is no Killing Strike.

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UncleArkie said:

The assassins dodge doesn't mean a thing, first he the took 2 attack from the assassin that did little damage, then the wolf spends a fate point on making his attacks unparry and unblockable in that round, lightning attack (from a deed) and he pounds him in the face with a chain sword and took away 90% of his wounds in the first hit, killed him dead by the second. That pretty much recycled over and over. It becomes even more unpretty if he uses the jump pack to move away from the assassin after he attacks, then he bounces out of bolt pistol range and back in for every attack.

Well, there's where you messed up (or the player did, anyway).  Killing Strike requires the character to use the All Out Attack Action - you only get one swing that round since that is a Full Action and entirely separate from the Multiple Attacks Action, the action used for Lightning Attack.  Also, the outcome depends a lot on what weapons and gear the Assassin was equipped with, not to mention the environment.  Even poorly equipped, a clever assassin will burn up your Fate Points with quick strikes followed by moving and hiding.  Once the FPs are gone, he can dance around the Space Marine, dodging every attack that comes his way and chipping away at the SM's health.

In just a straight slug-fest, naturally the advantage will go to the Assault Marine every time.  But then again, most of the Assassins I've seen would have blown off the AM's head before he even knew where his enemy was.

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I laugh at the idea of declaring an elite Space Marine overpowered based on his performance in a mano-a-mano fight against a mortal assassin. What's even more hilarious is that you're talking about a Space Wolf - by far not the best melee combatants in DW. Try this again with a Blood Angel, Black Templar or a Storm Warden, they're all much more stabby than Space Wolves. A Blood Angel Assault with a Chainsword or a Storm Warden... pretty much any specialty, wielding his Claymore should bisect this assassin in one hit with Killing Strike.

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In my opinion it's arguable wether killing strike beats the vindicare's dodge everything.

I would never let someone play an Vindi in one of my games, but should it ever come to pass that a SM combats a vindi in my games, the assassin may dodge.

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MILLANDSON said:

Morangias said:

 

Why are we even discussing the Vindicare power here? It's extra broken and needs an errata crowbar to the kneecap.

 

 

I'd like to see you hit it, it'd just dodge it.

To be honest Ascension is the weakest book in the DH line, and btw I never said that wolf was over powered, only that he rocked :)

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UncleArkie said:

space wolf assault marines are OP

Our bad. You can see how we mistakenly thought that you meant 'space wolf assault marines are over powered' there...

 

partido_risa.gif

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Narkasis Broon said:

 I might be wrong but doesnt the vindicare ability also specifically say that it can dodge attacks that are normally undodgable

Yes, though it's typically used for dodging large area-affect attacks or invisible psychic abilities.  I don't think I've seen anything on how that would work out against Killing Strike, since they are from two different games.  I'd lean toward KS because it costs a Fate Point, but I could see the Vindicare winning that since they're supposed to be so awesome.

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It's one of those "Unstoppable Force meets Immovable Object" situations.  The easiest solution would probably be for FFG to just come out and say either offense or defense wins in those situations.  Similar things could happen in Exalted, another over-the-top game, which is why White Wolf made it clear from the beginning that defense always wins in that system.

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 It does say decision is down to the GM, and I have to say if I were GMing that group I would say vindicare ability wins in unstoppable force vs immovable object, after all its an immovable object that specifically says "even forces that are normally unstoppable can't move this immovable object" to continue the analogy.

That bit of text only affects undodgable attacks, so any time you use it it will be an IF vs IO dilemma. Which suggests to me that is it meant to override undodgability completely, otherwise the GM has to analyse on a case by case basis every time it is used.

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ok, I noticed, that I already said something about it at page 1, but I think I'd let the Vindicare dodge. But as it is no clear thing I'd perhaps limit him to half his normal dodge value.

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