3 questions.

[Fieras 0]

1. If maester of the sun kneels to save a character during a MIL challenge, he then stands for vengeful, right?

I think with the timing of things, he has to save during the claim step, and then during the passive step he stands.  Is this correct?

2. I thought I read somewhere that in melee, master of whispers can claim opposed against both of the targets he opposes.  The rules say otherwise and I can't find a FAQ regarding this.  Is hand of whispers limited to claiming opposed only once?

3. I forget the answer to this one.  Who controls the dupes on a character who moves under another player's control?  If I remember correctly, you have to control BOTH the character AND the dupe for it to stay in play, so if the character changes control, the dupe drops off?  Please clarify.  Also.  If it doesn't drop off, who controls it / can trigger it.

[ktom 598]

Fieras said:

1. If maester of the sun kneels to save a character during a MIL challenge, he then stands for vengeful, right?

I think with the timing of things, he has to save during the claim step, and then during the passive step he stands. Is this correct?

Assuming you mean "save from claim effect," then yes. Vengeful is resolved as a passive effect, which comes after claim. So if the Maester is knelt anytime before passives, he will stand again for Vengeful.

The trick here, of course, is that if the Maester is used to save from a Response effect like Die by the Sword or CS-Robb Stark, the Maester will not stand for Vengeful, which has already passed by the time you play the Response.

Fieras said:

2. I thought I read somewhere that in melee, master of whispers can claim opposed against both of the targets he opposes.  The rules say otherwise and I can't find a FAQ regarding this.  Is hand of whispers limited to claiming opposed only once?

If a title opposes more than one player, it can claim the "opposed" power against either opponent, but it can only collect a total of 1 power each round. So no, the Master of Whispers cannot claim "opposed" against both opponents in a round, but he can claim his 1 power for the "opposed" against either opponent.

Fieras said:

3. I forget the answer to this one.  Who controls the dupes on a character who moves under another player's control?  If I remember correctly, you have to control BOTH the character AND the dupe for it to stay in play, so if the character changes control, the dupe drops off?  Please clarify.  Also.  If it doesn't drop off, who controls it / can trigger it.

(3.25) Taking Control of
a Card With Attachments
Any time control of a card switches via a card
effect during a game, the new controlling player
gains control of said card and all duplicates.

[Maester_LUke 0]

ktom said:

Fieras said:

 

3. I forget the answer to this one.  Who controls the dupes on a character who moves under another player's control?  If I remember correctly, you have to control BOTH the character AND the dupe for it to stay in play, so if the character changes control, the dupe drops off?  Please clarify.  Also.  If it doesn't drop off, who controls it / can trigger it.

 (3.25) Taking Control of

a Card With Attachments
Any time control of a card switches via a card
effect during a game, the new controlling player
gains control of said card and all duplicates.

 

You may also want to refer to the next part of the FAQ:

 

(3.27) Unique Cards and Changing Control You may not play, put into play, or take control of a unique card already in play that you own or control (except for putting a duplicate on a card that you own and control), or that is in your dead pile.
Thus you cannot take control of a unique character that you already have in play. You cannot play a unique card if your opponent has taken control of another copy of that unique card that you own.
Duplicates can only be played or put into play on cards you own and control.

So there should be no instance where you have a duplicate with a different owner than original unique card in play.

 

[Francisco G. 0]

Ok, so when a character change control the new controller gets the character and the dupes but not the other attachments.

 

My question is: What about the power on the character....who counts it? The owner or the one who has control.

I ask because the CS rules say: "The game is immediately over when one player has claimed 15 or more total power between his or her House and/or characters in play. That player wins the game"

For me that talks about ownership and not control, so it should count for the owner of the character and not the controller. But you also have Maester Lomys that says "Kneel......and discard 1 power from any number of characters you control to have each........blah blah"

So, who controls the power when a character change control??

On an entirely different question.......If some greyjoy character (don't remember the name) says something on the lines of discard the top card and if it is a mmmm event (doesn't matter really) you draw a card, and you have the other character that has the passive effect of adding one card for discarding anytime you make your opponent discard from the deck.  Does the second card discarded count as a top card for the draw effect?

And if the effect is "Reveal the top card then discard it (or not)" stack with the greyjoy character mentioned above since you are revealing first and then discarding, making it not directly discarded from the deck.

Thanks,

PS: Please excuse any mispelling since we are players from Chile (South America).

[ktom 598]

choco said:

My question is: What about the power on the character....who counts it? The owner or the one who has control.

I ask because the CS rules say: "The game is immediately over when one player has claimed 15 or more total power between his or her House and/or characters in play. That player wins the game"

For me that talks about ownership and not control, so it should count for the owner of the character and not the controller. But you also have Maester Lomys that says "Kneel......and discard 1 power from any number of characters you control to have each........blah blah"

Whenever something refers to "your" characters in play, it is referring to characters you control. Since the rules say "15 power between the player's House card and his characters in play," power counts for the controller, not the owner or the card.

Look at it this way: can you choose to kill a character you took control of for military claim? The rules say "The defending opponent must choose and kill a number of his characters in play equal to the claim value on the attacker’s revealed plot card." if "his or her characters in play" referred to ownership rather than control, you couldn't.

 

choco said:

On an entirely different question.......If some greyjoy character (don't remember the name) says something on the lines of discard the top card and if it is a mmmm event (doesn't matter really) you draw a card, and you have the other character that has the passive effect of adding one card for discarding anytime you make your opponent discard from the deck.  Does the second card discarded count as a top card for the draw effect?

And if the effect is "Reveal the top card then discard it (or not)" stack with the greyjoy character mentioned above since you are revealing first and then discarding, making it not directly discarded from the deck.

The phrasing of the effects in question can make a great deal of difference. For the most part, Motley Crewman only adds the extra card to something that directly discards from the deck. If you do something (like search or reveal) to the cards before discarding them, the Crewman usually doesn't apply. But that could depend on how the effect is worded. Cards are considered to be discarded from the deck individually, so when a single effect (on its own or "bumped up" by the Crewman) discards X cards, there are X "after you discard a card" different possible Response triggers, even if "top card" is specified.

[Francisco G. 0]

You said (don't know how to do the quote thing):

Look at it this way: can you choose to kill a character you took control of for military claim? The rules say "The defending opponent must choose and kill a number of his characters in play equal to the claim value on the attacker’s revealed plot card." if "his or her characters in play" referred to ownership rather than control, you couldn't.

 

One could argue that everyone is playing it wrong since it doesn't say 

"The defending opponent must choose and kill a number of  characters HE CONTROL in play equal to the claim value on the attacker’s revealed plot card." 

Especially since the rules of control vs ownership are kind of vague. 

By the way, I kind of agree with you in this... but it makes the bolton change of control  grab power (the event or location ¿?¿?) kind of bad. Especially when the other player(s) already have power and would get 15 by gaining the control of your house bolton. Cause at the bigining you can get your boltons back and the other player would lose the power you "gave" him, but afterwords you could not use the technique.

I think there is maybe a catch of WHEN you get the power. Something like power on the character is consider like the attachments when changing control or something.

In the greyjoy questions there are somethings that i didn't catch.

If i use the neutral holy character that reveals the top card and then i choose to discard it.....can i discard another one with motley crew?

if i use the character tha has the response: "If you win discard the topcard and if it is an event or attachment draw a card" (don't know if it has the word THEN)....with the motley crew i make the opponent discard another one......can i draw if it is an event or attachment? I figure you can't but i'm not sure.

 

Thanks

[Bomb 66]

Not sure if there is an official response on the definition of "discard from X deck", but as far as I'm concerned, the previous state of a card that is "revealed" like discussed, was that it was in a deck.  There can be many considered states of a card. 

Below is an additional example where the strictness of Motley Crewman can apply.

( 3 ) Godswood Attendant
STR 3 ( I ) ( P ) H N

Ally.

Response: After you win a challenge in which Godswood Attendant participated, look at the top card of any player's deck. Then, you may discard that card or put it back on top of its owner's deck.

The state of cards that I see in the game are in play, in your hand, in the discard pile, in your deck, in your dead pile, and in the shadows.

Godswood Attendent isn't revealed and it's not discarded directly if that is the choice.

As far as I'm concerned, any time an action says to take a card from someone's deck where there will be a point of discarding it counts as discarding it from the deck.

According to the FAQ:
A card "leaves play" when it moves from an in play state to an out of play state. Out of play states are the dead pile, the discard pile, a player’s hand, and a player’s deck.

If you can deduce how "revealed" or "look at the top card of any players deck" is putting that card in play for a tiny moment somehow, I'm really interested in hearing it because not counting those cards as being "from the deck" just adds more and more card text to keep an eye out for that really just blows my mind.  It's like asking someone "How do I get to your house from mine where the street has traffic bumps?" and they respond "Take a right out of your driveway on Maple Street.  Go all the way around the circle and then turn left into house 300 which is my driveway."  The problem is this person is your next door neighbor.  The directions may lead you in a direction that has traffic bumps, but just because you got directions with traffic bumps, doesn't mean the directions became from the last traffic bump instead of from your house.  It's only a different route to accomplish the same goal.

 

As far as ownership is concerned, the only ownership rules I am aware of revolve around whose deck the card came from and how it affects unique characters you have in play.  Controlling a card doesn't mean the owner of that card gets all the benefits from its use.  That would make controlling it useless.

If I stole someone else's remote control car, and chose to drive it off a cliff, is that impossible even though I don't own the remote control car?  If I won a race with this stolen remote control car, who collects the winnings?

By controlling a card in this game, you get all the benefits and downsides of this card.  Ownership has no bearing on that, but it does define what happens to the card once it leaves play.

[Francisco G. 0]

Not sure I understand how the analogy applies here....I would just walk on the sidewalk to avoid the bumps xD......

The thing is..... if this is the char in question (used with motley crew)

( 3 ) Godswood Attendant
STR 3 ( I ) ( P ) H N

Ally.

Response: After you win a challenge in which Godswood Attendant participated, look at the top card of any player's deck. Then, you may discard that card or put it back on top of its owner's deck.

If you interpretate litterally (they way it is done in this game). When you use this ability, you have the possibility of discarding or putting it BACK on the deck. If that doesn't mean that is not discarded from the deck i don't know.

By the way I play it the way you think....by discarding two cards......even when I'm the opponent!!!

How would you play the other ability? the one of the draw in my post above?

[ktom 598]

choco said:

One could argue that everyone is playing it wrong since it doesn't say 

One could argue that, but they probably wouldn't get too far. FFG has always said that by default, everything refers to cards you "control," unless is specifically says otherwise. So the rules would need to say "chooses and kills a character they own" if the rule was to apply to ownership only.