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Stahleck Invasion 2011 (18-20 nov)

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DB.Cooper said:

The point of the discussion is not about who's the best: is about what's the best thing to do for the game. And the best thing to do is nerf empire and give an actual chance to Elves. Then, if a single faction is out of the contest, that's fine, it's normal for a card game...

 

That's right. This is time for FFG to stop Empire domination. Maybe only restriction for Derrickburg Forge will work, but I suggest also restriction for Judgement of Verena becouse this card has power to destroy all opponent's suports and units even on turn 1 (Long Winter, Militia, Runefang, 1 resource left). Forge is the best support in the game, gives 1 power and loyality for 1 cost or 1 power and extra card for cost 2. With upcomming Empire quest will be even more powerful. Even mono Dwarf Europe Champion and vice-champion have them in decks. Judgement of Verena force opponent to develop every turn and to have some develop control in deck, influencing all decks and meta like Visit the Haunted City before. In my opinion this card should be playable as ultimate game breaker, but without economy acceleration with Warpstones and Forges. On the other hand, if Forge and Verena will be restricted Whilhem from the Osterkancht could be not, also DE Soul Stealer shouldn't be restricted.

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Where do you see empire domination?

I just see overplayed archetype that do result cause it's overplayed, and losing against an old archetype deck, against which he was losing the same way more than 1 year ago. Players are just too influenced by the "10 guys" that speak louder than the others on the web.

The only thing that should be nerfed is always the same thing, the "setup speed", I mean there are too many cards accessible to empire which the purpose is only to speed up the set up. But this is the same for any faction.

Contested village should also be on the RL, this card is almost in every deck with no other purpose than speed up the set up. Those cards look like "lands" in magic. Ressource in WH:I are the "strong point" of the game, any card that "just look like a land" bring a high degree of randomization with no reason.

Those settings cards just bring randomization and most faction does not have the same or equivalents "cards" to set up as fast.

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Shindulus said:

I just see overplayed archetype that do result cause it's overplayed, and losing against an old archetype deck, against which he was losing the same way more than 1 year ago. Players are just too influenced by the "10 guys" that speak louder than the others on the web.

 

Hi. 

The 10 guys are good players and playtesters. And aren't 10. There are lots of people who see what the truth is. 

Derricksburg and Rodrik is often played in other order decks. They're autoincludes as Warpstone Excavation or Contested....

Contested Village in the restricted list means nothing. That's not the problem of the game: is limited and has no effect, at 1 cost. Pretty balanced. 

 

A competitive Verena deck NEVER lost against Dwarves on a regular basis. 
When someone speak "louder" than others, maybe they CAN. We're discussing with the TOP 16-8 players of the biggest central tournament in the world and with other good players who played there and saw how things go nowadays.

When you play tournaments over an entire year, playtest 3-4 times per week, build a deck and destroy almost any opponent, you HAVE the right to speak loud, if we're speaking about COMPETITIVE play. That's not being rude or something: if we talk about organized play, we talk about meta-game, the state of the playtesting and card design and the actual power of competitive decks.

 

Empire ITSELF would  be a normal faction (still strong, but normal) without the RIDICOLOUS boost and recursive support-control: you are empire, you control the table with bouncing-moving effects and get strategic advantage. That's the description of the previews. Ban Verena, Ban/restrict Rodrik, restrict derricksburg: they don't fit that description. That's destruction style and insane resources boost.

If they want to control supports, they play burn it down or splash demolition. That's it: that's the point of hard deckbuilding. :)

 

DB

 

 

 

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I considered Forge and Rodrik as "set up" cards which I am talking in my last post. Rodrik's main aim is to create differencial power with your opponent.

Once  more that's not because the 10 players, believed that they are the ones who play the most and the best and...that does not meant they are the only to play a lot. And moreover that does not meant that they are always right. Ok take the right to speak louder if you want, that does not make your arguments more relevant.

There are local playgroup with more potentiels players than the 32 in "european championship".

Their "mistake" has just been demonstrate : "A competitive Verena deck NEVER lost against Dwarves on a regular basis".  During a tournament where at least during Top16 those "never losing against dwarves decks" have taken a 0 4 (at least 4 and maybe 6) against only one archetype. And this archetype was just an "old archetype" totally nerfed by the RL and despite what you are trying to say, it's not a totally anti verana deck he has weapon very efficient against others decks. But I am quite sure that this deck was using forge + village or exca. Am I trying to say that faction that have access to "fast set up cards" have a too great advantage?

How many empire decks there were at the start of the tournament?

If you tell me that there were more than 16 empire deck, those empire deck have just made a result according to their massive presence during the tournament.

The main problem of WH:I is the general use of cards which only aim is to have a fast set up. Any low cost cards that give power can be considered as a such card, ,not a matter of how balanced they are, but how many of those cards are accessible to a given faction. Those cards randomize the game and force players to have similar contruction no matter which deck they are creating. And yes in this way contested village is a problem, no matter if it is limited or not it just bring more randomization. And yes actually empire have many of those cards. This is that point that should be modified (access to forge + rodrik + contested/exca + ... not the power of verana or something else).

The second problem of WH:I is that too many players are believing what others say. It's really easier to complain than looking for solution.

 

I am not sure that we have such a different opinion we just don't see the source of the problem in the same points.

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Hi,

i definitely noticed that we're on the same boat, believe me and I didn't meant to be offensive. Sorry.

 

Anyway, even if there were 20 empires, 7 of them were our players, the same one who play empire and complain about it, the same guys that did the right thing (imho), with me and other hundreds of players, when asked FFG to ban VTHC.

I do respect the winner, I do respect the average players, I do respect everyone: but from a competitive perspective, I've to focus on the opinions of the players who play everytime and almost everyday and get awesome results during key tournaments.
A good player can hide in a loft in Alaska, I'll never now...But if that player's that good and doesnt' say anything, he or she can't help the game as much as we, active players, do.

 

So: I trust your opinion and it's just the same as mine...And I'm pretty sure Verena itself is not the core problem...But it's still a problem. You HAVE to develop, I DON't. One less card to play means one more card you have to draw and if I undermine your draw-engine, you lose. That's a basic concept of the game.

Then, Empire decks right now are most "turbo-rodrick resource control" decks. Play rodrik, replay it, play skinks, replay it, save your guy, play some other rodrik and so on...Than Frederich and the emperor come out and the game ends in 2 turns. That's how it goes.

Verena is an added power in a powerful faction. You develop 1 per turn. Turn 2, I can go Verena + Long Winter and even destroy you 3 cards. Game over.

 

Single cards aren't a problem. Even Rodrik wouldn't have been a problem without all the bouncing effects.

But that's the point: I think each faction should relate on its basic synergis and its "inner" strategy (every single FFG faction has both, in any card game).

Just to be precise:

EMPIRE: tactical advantage with move effects; board advantage with damage redirection, power control and bouncing effects. Drawbacks should be clear: small units, lack of support removal.

DWARVES: big capital difficult to burn out; reanimation effects and combos as a secondary way. Drawback is slow setup.

HIGH ELVES: indirect damage/spell focus with a lot of control.

ORCS: rush as the main way, control as a hidden soul.

CHAOS: units control, direct damaging effects.

DARK ELVES: hp/hand control; mill.

 

If FFG focuses on THIS scheme, at the end of a cycle and with one more deluxe we'll have a balanced game...But they've to stop to give EVERYTHING to empire, re-fill Orcs with resounding rushing and damaging effects (when Caos is so strong) and printing useless units and tactics for Elves. :)

 

The problem with empire itself, in the end, is the fact that THOSE boost aren't neutral, but imperial: no loyalty issues. You can easily start with 3 cards in play.

Turn 2 you get 5 resources and draw 2. Play rodrick 2 times and it's game over. That's absurd. :)

 

DB

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DB.Cooper said:

So: I trust your opinion and it's just the same as mine...And I'm pretty sure Verena itself is not the core problem...But it's still a problem. You HAVE to develop, I DON't. 

 

I was talking about that on my national forum, the threat brought by some cards is as efficient that the fact of playing those cards. Because to counter the threat you must play in a particular way, in the case of Verana this can lead to "lose" a card almost for nothing every turn. Talking about some cards during the game or at the beginning of the game can be as efficient as effectively playing those cards.

Depending of the level threat and what does it cost you to play according to the threat you "must" or "not" do it.

But I really think that for more and more decks this Verana's threat is less and less effective. And the more the game will get new cards, the more this threat will be less effective.

 

DB.Cooper said:

Then, Empire decks right now are most "turbo-rodrick resource control" decks. Play rodrik, replay it, play skinks, replay it, save your guy, play some other rodrik and so on...Than Frederich and the emperor come out and the game ends in 2 turns. That's how it goes.

 

Verena is an added power in a powerful faction. You develop 1 per turn. Turn 2, I can go Verena + Long Winter and even destroy you 3 cards. Game over.

The problem with empire itself, in the end, is the fact that THOSE boost aren't neutral, but imperial: no loyalty issues. You can easily start with 3 cards in play.

Turn 2 you get 5 resources and draw 2. Play rodrick 2 times and it's game over. That's absurd. :)

 

 

The two bold quote are for me quite the same "fast set up" compared to your opponent.

Rodrik is a card that I mainly considered to be a "fast set up card", and more over you can do some strong strategy just around this card.

But yes finally we have the same opinion that's not fun ;).

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DB.Cooper said:

No pros, nor psycho: just players who love the game and are tired to see a one-deck game (or two-decks game). 

And that is one point where I do not understand your doings. If you are tired of Empire, why do you not just play another deck?
I had at least 3-4 italian guys comeing to me at the begin  of a swiss round saying that they are tired of playing Empire vs Empire again and want to draw.

 

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Don't even seen this card before this discussion :

 

52
Sons of Coin.
Empire Unit. 2 E. 2P, 2HP. Noble.
Kingdom only.
Forced : At the beginning of your turn, spend 1 resource or deal 1 damage to this section of your capital.

 

The new total aberration, the typical fast set up card I was talking about. Any "low cost" card giving power is potentialy a card that bring unbalanced things. Even more when those low cost cards give power equal or superior to their cost.

It's like a faction is geting "triple lands" while others are playing with "normal land".

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Shindulus said:

Don't even seen this card before this discussion :

 

52
Sons of Coin.
Empire Unit. 2 E. 2P, 2HP. Noble.
Kingdom only.
Forced : At the beginning of your turn, spend 1 resource or deal 1 damage to this section of your capital.

 

The new total aberration, the typical fast set up card I was talking about. Any "low cost" card giving power is potentialy a card that bring unbalanced things. Even more when those low cost cards give power equal or superior to their cost.

It's like a faction is geting "triple lands" while others are playing with "normal land".

Message from FFG is clear: play imperium or GTFOgran_risa.gif

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I've always considered myself "in the middle". 

For some reasons you know from private conversations, I wasn't able to play that much and I still have some troubles.

The "american" style of play is a lot "thematic" and deep from a flavour point of view, pretty original, but sometimes not concrete. The "european" style of play is more boring and far from the setting, but more concrete. That's a general rule even in board-games.

Now: i like both stuff. 

One-Two years ago, Orc Skaven, some Verena-Dwarf and RBT decks were strong (some months after).

I liked EMPIRE since day one (even before, by previews). I was thrilled by elves, though.

I used to play Orc-Control when noone did (no reanimation, it wasn't possible at that time), did pretty good, but I played it mostly because it was mine.

I had a pretty strong empire deck: never played at a tournament. NEVER.

 

Now I'm testing HIGH elves, a "new" empire (hopefully without Rodrik some day soon) and Dark Elves. I like the theme and the strategies and I'm "happy" to lose if I did something by myself or at least following my "tastes". 

I really like "metagame-breakers" like your Dwarves or the like. 

So: I'm tired of Empire and I even started to ask for a "soft ban" for VTHC at that time, and now I'm doing the same encouraging our players to play other stuff...BUt here's the catch: there's a competitive-organized play, there's a league, there are regionals.

And TOP players enjoy the game when they win (i'm a bit competitive too, but not in the "usual" meaning). 

I do like competition, if it's balanced and if even a "middle-tier" deck can say it's thing.

 

I'm still convinced Empire is the top deck and so are our players: it wins regularly against any deck, and has its full chances even against your Dwarven deck with a bit of teching. 

So: when I speak, most of the time, I speak in the interests of the competitive side of the community, the once who fully understand the game and that plays just the BEST deck, not the one they like the most. 

 

I've used to play CoC LCG (I'm re-starting ahaha :)) and I'm a decent Agot player: I was never a top player (won a couple of little tournaments and reached a bunch of placements, but never played more than 4-5 tournaments in a season), but everyone could swear that in every new tournament I would have played a NEW deck, maybe crazy, maybe not that useful, but funny. :)

Next week I'll play a HE deck, probably. Not a single chance to get a single point...But it'll be fun. :)

 

That's what I like, that's what I SEE IN THESE BOARDS and that's what I like of american's playstyle. But that's not the point of the conversation.

The point is, with fine tuning and some playtesting, in T1 competitive play, this game has 1 serious decks and 2-3 conditional decks. That's it. :)

 

DB

 

 

 

jogo said:

DB.Cooper said:

No pros, nor psycho: just players who love the game and are tired to see a one-deck game (or two-decks game). 


And that is one point where I do not understand your doings. If you are tired of Empire, why do you not just play another deck?
I had at least 3-4 italian guys comeing to me at the begin  of a swiss round saying that they are tired of playing Empire vs Empire again and want to draw.

 

 

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BBSB12 said:

Hi,

  So is this the RTF Dwarves deck that everyone is discussing? deckbox.org/sets/103130

Maybe is something similar, but i can't believe this is exactly the winning deck, 'cause I can't see Beleaguered Scout, whitout this Unit a deck like this one could be easily crushed by any fair orc-bats Rush!!

If this is really the winning deck thsi fact confirms this deck is a great anti-empire deck but polish guys took really a great risk... they finally won a very dangerous bet!

 

 

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Finally we came back :)

 

Highlander won by Dami (Poland - Wroclaw)

Championship won by Jaszczur (Poland - Wroclaw)

Runner up Mamut (Poland - Gdansk)

Driver not the car won by Bonq (Poland - Wroclaw)

Nations Cup won by Corrupt or Die! (Jaszczur, Przemo, Darker - Poland - Wroclaw)

 

 

I wont say a word in discussion about Empire.

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In Poland, We can beat overpowered Empire with Dwarves, Chaos or Orcs, but this decks have also weak matchups. Empire is strong against every race and every deck. The best economy setup (Forge, Rodrik, Hunstman), game breaker (Verena), control (Grove, Elite, Rodrik, Verena) and finishers (Hemmler, Karl Frantz) allow to crush every opponent. FFG ban VtHC and give the Empire Osterknacht's Elite with Call for Reserve engine instead... and now things like Scion of the Coin - 2/2 unit for just 2 and 1 loyality... Warpstone, Village, Forge, Hunstman, Scion of the Coin and the Empire will always start with min 3 power on 1st turn... Other races can't do things like this... Empire gets 2/2 unit for 2E and HE 2/2 unit for 3HeHe - is that BALANCE?

and that is the MAIN PROBLEM with the Empire: the best setup and the best board control (develop, support, unit + total reset for the opponent with Verena)

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Teokrata said:

In Poland, We can beat overpowered Empire with Dwarves, Chaos or Orcs, but this decks have also weak matchups. Empire is strong against every race and every deck. The best economy setup (Forge, Rodrik, Hunstman), game breaker (Verena), control (Grove, Elite, Rodrik, Verena) and finishers (Hemmler, Karl Frantz) allow to crush every opponent. FFG ban VtHC and give the Empire Osterknacht's Elite with Call for Reserve engine instead... and now things like Scion of the Coin - 2/2 unit for just 2 and 1 loyality... Warpstone, Village, Forge, Hunstman, Scion of the Coin and the Empire will always start with min 3 power on 1st turn... Other races can't do things like this... Empire gets 2/2 unit for 2E and HE 2/2 unit for 3HeHe - is that BALANCE?

and that is the MAIN PROBLEM with the Empire: the best setup and the best board control (develop, support, unit + total reset for the opponent with Verena)

I quote everything.
...is that balance?

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ok so here are few words from me about Stahleck Invasion.

 

First of all, big congrats for Jaszczur! Actually his deck totally dominated this tournament. I was just a common driver with awsome Lamborghini :P There were few differences between our decks, but the mechanism was the same :-)

 

Why did I choose this deck? I knew that there will be Italy players with their Verena. And in my opinion RTF is a deck which has great chances to win almost every game with "Italian Verena deck" In top8 against Darkest (Heloooo ZABA! :P ) I got my quest zone cleaned, Still I won that match.

Why did the Italian Verena failed? Well for sure it's not because of players. I consider Italian player to be one of best in Europe. The point is that they're playing (as I was said) mirrors in big tournaments. It's the safest way to be competetive. I do believe that Verena has a serious problem only with RTF (but using Volkmar can totally own Reclaim deck), but then... this kind of Empire will lose with other empire on Karl Franz.

 

Italian players showed they have mastered mirror matchup, still 3 polish players playing Verena (only 1of us didnt make out to be in the top 16) managed to be in top 16. That's a great success. I think that Italian Verena deck is better than polish one in mirrors. And this time there were mostly this kind of game (I faced one He deck and later 8 empires in a row!)

 

Ofc Empire is over powered. The funny thing is that probably the new Empire unit wont be played. Why? Because Empire already has a awsome starts ;-) Restricting Derricksburg will help a lot and will make meta more funny. There will be a Zoo, but since it's Unique card wont be so good as Forge is right now.

 

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Awesome analysis, but let me point something out: I wouldn't think about "failing". Our players still believe that empire is stronger than any other race.

And I believe it too. Can be stopped with an anti-meta deck, but the trick would last for a couple of tournaments and nothing more until he won't be nerfed.

Noone (aside rush) should start with 3 cards in this game, at least it's a luky start or a "basic" engine start, with no possibilities to gain insane advantage.

The zoo is definitely MAD. It's basically one more contested village.

 

Anyway, I find that the Teokrata and Mamut analysis are perfect and with mine and jogo's, it's a clear SOS message to designers. :)

 

 

I'm going to play High Elves in the near future, so no problem for me. I'll lose, but with long hair against the wind and an awesome body. ;)

 

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DB.Cooper said:

Anyway, I find that the Teokrata and Mamut analysis are perfect and with mine and jogo's, it's a clear SOS message to designers. :) 

THX for support. I belive that FFG will listen to our message when Polish and Italian players speak as once. I also have hope that WHI community will be stronger after this tournament. We want to play with WHI players from other countries. We want more big international events and will organize them in Poland ;-))) Tournaments in Poland looks like this - https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/10824829/1//Z%C5%82oto%20P%C3%B3%C5%82nocy?h=65b120&

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results after 6 rounds.

1. Stuch Empire 14pkt Wloch
2. Jaszczur Dwarf 13pkt Polak
3. Gardine Empire 13pkt Niemiec
4. Darkast Empire 13pkt Kolumbijczyk mieszkajacy we Wloszech
5. Trouble Empire 12pkt Wloch
6. Kami Empire 11pkt Wloch
7. Fortep Empire 11pkt Polak
8. Budmeilka Empire 10pkt Francuz
9. Tufo Empire 10pkt Wloch
10. Eblis Empire 10pkt Wloch
11. Mad_Niko Empire 10pkt Wloch
12. Mamut Dwarf 10pkt Polak
13. Zaba Empire 10pkt Polak
14. Przemo Chaos 9pkt Polak
15. Darker Ork 9pkt Polak
16. Bonq Empire 9pkt Polak
17. Johnny Ork 9pkt Niemiec
18. Ivan Sanches Roig Dark Elves 9pkt
19. Vasconcelos Empire 9pkt
20. Dami Empire 8pkt
21. Rudi Empire 7pkt
22. Schmutzer Empire 7pkt Niemiec
23. Ron Chaos 7pkt
24. Bellamy Empire 6pkt
25. Barandas Chaos 6pkt
26. Axel Dark Elves 6pkt
27. Damas Ork 6pkt
28. Primus Magicus Empire 5pkt
29. Soto Dwarf 4pkt
30. Xela Ork 3pkt
31. Kris High Elves 3pkt
32. David Groergen High Elves 1pkt

18 Empire decks on 32 players, 7 Empires in top 8 after 6 rounds - NOT META DOMINATION?

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Actual "set up cards" for empire :

1- Forge

2- Warpstone

3- Sion

4- Village

5- Zoo


A great potential of being able to have 3 loyalty turn 2 (so as to play an efficient zoo)

15 cards of the deck that all give "at least" 1 power for 1 ressources.

+ all 2 cost + 1 loyalty cards combinations.

 

It's just near to be impossible to get less than 2 power icons turn 1 for empire's deck, they often can get 3, they can even get more...

The probability to have the same "continuation" turn 2 is increased.

At end of turn 2 empire can afford on a + 6 to 8 power icon most of time. How can others faction enter in opposition of such opulence?

 

All those cards are just "set up cards" they have strictly the same usefullness that lands have in Magic.

The game do not confront the deck strategies, the game just confronts how a deck is able to get power icons faster and faster than an other one.

 

At least in magic the "power" increase is limited each turn in WH:I there are no limit and faction do not really get the same access to "power". What was at start a good point for WH:I just become something totaly wrong as it make the game unbalanced. Because FFG creates cards for the sole purpose to be "lands".

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Hi all,

As I don't have a lot of time (and will propably write some report later this week)  I would just like to thank:

- Johnny for coordinating the whole tournament

- judges for their strong nerves

- my team for winning every tournament in Stahleck

- all the players - it was a great time for me, I had a chance and privilage to meet all of you and exchange experience, especially Itallian players with their great empire decks, hope to see you on other tournamnets in Poland or Italy

 

Lot of luck and well tested deck helped me win the tournament, but for me the biggest winner is our community. We all drank some serious amounts of beer,  gathered contact mails and I believe that this will be a great start to make our international community finally work in proper way - many european tournaments each year, not only Stahleck.

We will make an english sub-forum on our polish forum (www.whinvasion.pl) so we can inform about tournaments and share experience with foreign players.

BR,

Jakub "Jaszczur" Serafin

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Shindulus said:

Actual "set up cards" for empire :

1- Forge

2- Warpstone

3- Sion

4- Village

5- Zoo

 

U forgot about Huntsman - another 1 power for 1 cost with 1 loyality, Runefang (2 power for 2 and option for 1st turn Verena) and Militia

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