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Gillam Harrow

Khornite Psykers?

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What we're forgetting here is that there's a minute difference between sorcery and psychic powers..

I think Khorne would be cool with blood magic, but I can't see a khornate psyker.

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 I'm pretty sure we're not forgetting it - at least, I am not. Sorcery still is mostly a matter of brains over brawn, which is what Khorne doesn't particularly like. And of course, the Sorcerer archetype text was pretty definite about the whole thing.

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 I've always envision Khorne as the good of war, which includes bloody murder but also martial skill. At it's purest, which is melee (why i recon all khorne berserkers dual wield melee weapons) but also guns and the like. I figured he views sorcerers and psychics as weaklings who cheat and cower behind powers they have no right wielding, killing those who fight wars the way he feels they should be fought.

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The thing about technology, though, is that anything that can be said of sorcery or psychic powers can be said of technology a hundred times. Like the idea that sorcery is about using your brain to avoid battle - well imagine how much mental effort and man hours have to go into building a suit of power armor and chain sword that a Khorne Berserker carries into battle? Think of all of the pencil necked geeks it takes to keep a Khorne dedicated land raider up and running or to operate a single Warp capable ship to carry World Eaters on a Black Crusade? If anything, Khorne should send out his soldiers naked to fight the enemy instead of using weapons made by a bunch of wimpy intellectual types.

In a way, psychic powers are much more pure than technology. I can imagine a Khorne psyker going on on the battlefield in a rage, his anger becoming pure psychic energy to destroy his foes. There is no trickery involves, no long hours of study, no maintenance of high tech weapons. Just pure hatred being turned into destructive psychic power - sounds like pure Khorne to me.

I can also see blood sorcery, though it seems a little less Khorne-like than psychic powers. Plus, Khorne is a being of the Warp, his daemons draw power from the same source as psychics draw their powers from, his daemons must be summoned like other daemons. Khorne is a psychic entity, it seems strange that he would then reject psychic powers. 

 

Obviously, none of this stuff is canon, but I think that is does match the themes enough for me to consider such things in my own games. 

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 Well, Khorne doesn't give gifts to people working in arms factories but he does give it to people who wield said weapons in battle, slaughtering in the blood gods name. 

Didn't the world eaters purge their legion of psychers because khorne hates psychics? If he didn't like them in his patron legion, I doubt he'd take a liking to some random cultist asking for his favour.

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That reminds me. Past soldiers would always consider cowards next soldier generation.

In old times, bow was considered a coward weapon, because it allowed a weak man kill a great warrior without fighting.

When crossbow was invented, it was bad considered because it allowed a weak man kill a great warrior without fighting.

When fireweapons were introduced in war, it was bad considered because it allowed a weak man kill a great warrior without fighting. (The last one is even told in Don Quixote).

In the 41st millenium, psychic powers are bad considered because it allows a weak - ahem- psyker kill a great warrior without fighting.

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Lord Ork said:

In the 41st millenium, psychic powers are bad considered because it allows a weak - ahem- psyker kill a great warrior without fighting.

Nah, psychic powers are considered bad because they're totally OP.

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, but he is *very* concerned about game balance.

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Khorne is portrayed in conflicting lights, as per the Lexicanum page on him, "Khorne is said to have inherited a martial nobility and honour, and considers the weak and helpless to be unworthy of his wrath."

And yet his followers are portrayed as going about murdering babies and the unarmed babbling about blood.

You'd think psykers, who kill with their hate, who can commit great violence and feed him great amounts of blood, that harness the same power that he does, that are needed to let his children into the universe, would be his champions. But no, when he was written there was still the "Lulz, Fighters can not use Magic, thats for Wizards!" mindset.

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For the followers of Khorne to kill all psykers on sight makes no sense in a setting where psykers are fundamentally required for interstellar travel and communication.  If they did so, they'd soon cease to be a threat to anyone as they'd be stuck wherever they were.

 

I think there's room for differing interpretations of the faith in the setting. There's the aforementioned martial honour/mindless slaughter split, which is a pretty big doctrinal difference - just like real world religions have.   The khornate 'religion' practiced by the World Eaters appears to have nothing much in common with that practiced by the Blood Pact. The former are described as barely sentient animals who think of nothing but killing, while the latter are a professional army whose faith and training them make them the equal of any Imperial force.  I know which version I prefer. 

 

The Abnett interpretation of khornate followers makes much more sense to me - in order to be a credible threat, an army in M41 needs psykers because of the way the setting works.  Like any religion, the Blood Pact's faith has its priests and rituals - prognostication through reading omens in blood spatter, for example.  While their objectives may appear insane or nonsensical to the non-chaotic mindset, the Pact has objectives and goals beyond slaughter for its own sake, although they are happy to use slaughter as a military tool or religious practice.  In Traitor General it is clear that they have a highly ordered and stuctured society, with their own parallels to some of the 'civilian' institutions of the imperium, and they have a plan for the worlds they occupy, although what that is isn't really revealed.

 

I absolutely love the idea of khornate 'goremages'.  Blood magic and the power of blood is such a common trope in fantasy, sf and horror, that it seems stupid to exclude it from a setting where there's an actual god of blood.

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I have just figured a decent reason why the Librarian from DoW2 followed Khorne - did you see him cast all that many psychic powers that wasn't summoning daemons? I know I didn't, but I did see him try to destroy an entire world or two, as well as kill people in close combat - I think that Librarian focused on combat and powers that augmented that, rather than throwing lightning and the like around.

Perhaps Khorne is good with people augmenting themselves in combat, even if they are technically a psyker?

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G'day;

Psykers/sorcerers can follow Khorne, but Khorne does not mark them with his favours & does not make them his champions or daemon-princes.

Khorne daemons can be summoned to slaughter, they will not come to an evening of parlour games & tea, well they might so as to have quick word with the sorceror that summond them.

The use of blood is a defining trait of witchery/sorcery in the 40k fluff, it carries life-essence & is used to boost the psychic powers of the witch.

True sorcerers, such as the Thousand Sons Space marines, have no need to use blood, but may use it to cause fear.

The visible effects of psychic powers can appear as anything, for some it could be a torrent of blood spewed from the mouth, whilst for others it could be a stream of white roses cast from the hands both will still strip the flesh from the bones.

As for the novel 'Blood Pact', do not be so quick to dismiss it. Dan Abnett has had a heavy impact on the 40K fluff. Vox-caster is his & is but one example.

 

Sincerely;

Dracurian

 

P.S: Still can not find a spell checker here.

 

8-)

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No idea if this has already been said...

Have a looksie at Dawn of War 2 Retribution... Something in that game always struck me as wrong, namely the antagonist being a Librarian who turned to Khorne... And given that GW has a hardass attitude towards their IP, all games under the franchise could be considered canon. Still, I think it is a no-no...

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So from what I understand, Khorne espouses facing the enemy head on with chainsword and bolter and rage, looking down on Psykers as cowards who hide behind lies and powers they cannot comprehend. All understandable, BUT:

Like someone else mentioned earlier, Khorne kinda NEEDS psykers, otherwise his champions would be kinda imited in both the communications and warp travel departments (effectively leaving his armies deaf, dumb, and lame).

Someone else pointed out that while the whole hellfire-at-the-fingertips and mind warping might be below Khorne, augmenting one's own body to better take skulls. I, for one, would see this as an acceptable deviation of Khorne's rhetoric.

Khorne isnt just a god of Slaughter, he's a god of War, and war is constantly evolving into something greater and with more world-ending potential. Psykers are just a new weapon in the ever expanding arsenal of war. therefore, while GW and (to a degree) FF say that no Khorne psykers, let's think rationally here: if Khorne wants to keep his title as THE God of War, he's gonna have to adapt his tactics to the era. does it make sense to set aside a very powerful and adaptable (if unpredictiable and dangerous at times) weapon just because it might be an *unfair* advantage?

Modern Militaries are always looking for an edge, even looking into areas most folks consider "immoral". They Field prototypes of the prospective weapon to see how it holds up in a combat situation. Could Khorne not do the same thing with a psyker dedicated to him?

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Khorne, the God, hates psycker. Point.

It as always been that way in the book where Khorne Deamons will engage demaons... check the Iron Warrior chaos novel.

Tzench is the god of psycker, magic and lies and is the Direct opposite of Khorne God of War and bold and Death.

 

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Waywardpaladin said:

False. Slaanesh is considered the opposite of Khorne, Nurgle is Tzeentch's enemy. I know, doesn't make as much sense.

This is how I understand the rivalries between the 4 gods.

Tzeentch vs Nurgle is basically the struggle between Change and Stagnation.  Chaos and Stability.

Slaanesh vs Khorne is basically the struggle between devotion to one's self and devotion to something greater than one's self.  In a sense, Selfishness vs selflessness.

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Gillam Harrow said:

while GW and (to a degree) FF say that no Khorne psykers, let's think rationally here

If you find more rational that Khorne employs psykers, make him do that way in your games, without doubt.If the discussion is "does khornite psykers make sense?", i think you have a point. If the discussion is "do khorne employs psykers in canon", I think the answer is clearly "no, with maybe one or two exceptions".

On the other question, I think of Slaanesh-Khorne rivalry as discipline vs indulgement.

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Lord Ork said:

Gillam Harrow said:

 

On the other question, I think of Slaanesh-Khorne rivalry as discipline vs indulgement.

Definitely possible.  Also I think it's Oldest Sibling vs. Youngest Sibling in many senses.  Slaanesh is generally considered the youngest of the 4 and probably considered an usurper or Pretender to the Throne to Khorne, who is supposed to be the most powerful and oldest.

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Yeah, the idea that Khorne is the most powerful seems to be an empty boast when Tzeentch knows everything. Of course, that leads to my theory that Chaos is self-sabotaging, or at least Tzeentch ensures that it is, because ultimately he doesn't want there to ever be a final victory that would bring stagnation.

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It basically goes that Khorne & Slannesh are rivals due to the fact that they poach each others 'food'.

A warrior either comes to joyous abandonment of endless rage & slaughter, & therefore to Khorne. Or finds an ecstatic pleasure in battle as the ultimate hedonisim, & therefore to Slaanesh.

Khorne also fights straight up, relying upon strength & skill at arms. Slaanesh relies upon speed, poisons, & a swift knife in the back.

Basically, Khorne sees his rival a soft girly thing & Slaanesh sees Khorne as a brutish thug.

 

Tzeentch & Nurgle rivalry is much more obvious. Tzeentch stands for change & rebirth, Nurgle for stagnation & endlessness.

 

Sincerely;

Dracurian

 

8-)

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I thought Nurgle was more of a life cycle thing?  Birth to death and self preservation against the hardship in the between.

Then again...  I always considered Nurgle and Tzeentch to be the ones that think things in the long term.  As in they know if chaos wins, then everyone loses which means chaos loses too.  Nurgle is making sure he gets a stable army of followers and at times does a little growth on the side while Tzeentch does the same thing with its schemes.  All the while the "children" of the field (aka Slaanesh and Khrone) goes around messing themselves up with Tzeentch at times correcting things so that the two don't mess up the sweet deal that they all have.

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