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DB.Cooper

Formal Petition: Ban "Visit The Haunted City" - Restrict "Verena"

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Hi.

 

Everyone knows how I love this game and how I'm far from begging for bans. But this thing is destroying the game.

It's a mistake, anyone can make a mistake: the important thing is to figure it out and solve it.

 

There's no actual solution: a "unique restriction" for Visit The Haunted City is not a solution: a single Quest in play is still a victory condition (no more than a quest in play in our finals and still a TOP 8 empire only).

After The Ban, Verena has to be restricted, cause in this way, a Verena deck will still be competitive, but will be a different build, not an "auto" one.

 

I'm doing this just because I LOVE the game and I'm pretty sure that with Legends and following products we'll get an awesome balanced meta.

 

If you agree (partially or totally) pleas subscribe: we write to FFG too, this is just a way to involve players in the discussione.

We're going to apply a "soft ban", but it won't work.

 

If you still don't trust us, read the report, build the quest-deck, follow the instructions and play it. You'll hate it after 2-3 games. :)

Bye

DB 

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I think a ban is a bit much.  What we really need is some cards that deal specifically with quests.  Remove tokens, return to hand, destroy, cancel effects.  I would love to see a quest that simply cancels all other quests while a unit is on it.  Maybe we could see a whole line of units and supports which are immune to quest effects.  Even if VTHC isn't too powerful (I'm not 100% convinced it is), it would be fun to finally see some anti-quest cards.

RM

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I AM 100% convinced VTHC is too powerful, but I think making it unique would go a long way in balancing the environment.  I would also add Judgement to the restricted list and perhaps add the newly unique VTHC to the list as well.

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Simpler answer than banning is to actually either a) allow sideboard or b) allow two deck lists (but no sideboard)  for competitive tournaments. 

Why?

The lack of sideboard actually encourages Verena/VTHC style decks because it does more than other decks can.  As a result WH:I is going to suffer from meta domination ALL the time because no deck can do everything and there will almost always be one deck that does enough better to be dominant.

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 I agree with the Make "Visit the Haunted City" unique and then add it and 'Judgement of Verena" to the restricted list argument.  I just dont see the case for an outright ban of this card.  It is perhaps close, but not quite powerful enough to merit that.  

 

If Visit isnt there, then it seems to me that there are other archtypes that are strong enough that one of them could easily rise to become the new completely dominant decktype.  Both 'Offering to Hekatari' and 'Sorcerer of Tzneetch' are powerful enough to be on the restricted list if Visit is banned in my opinion.

 

I feel that the idea of a sideboard is a good one.  It gives the best of three format more relevance, it makes many niche cards more playable, and it will help prevent a single deck from dominating the format as has generally been the case so far in W:I.

 

TL

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 As a Living Card Game... couldn't they just reprint VTHC with... I don't know. An extra symbol, up the cost, and make it three quest tokens? 

 

I mean, obviously, it seems like it'd be awful. But it's a LCG. They can theoretically  do it because everyone would have access of it. They can affect all the future reprints of it. 

 

Tournaments would have it so that they announce the changes to the card so that people who play it know what has changed. And it really wouldn't bother casual people because casual people don't really care, and someone can buy the battle pack and there might be an insert stating the change.

 

I don't know if that makes sense, mainly because I'm not explaining it correctly, but it seems like a reprint would fix the problem permanently. And it uses the function of the LCG to a tee.

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colormage1 said:

 As a Living Card Game... couldn't they just reprint VTHC with... I don't know. An extra symbol, up the cost, and make it three quest tokens? 

 

I mean, obviously, it seems like it'd be awful. But it's a LCG. They can theoretically  do it because everyone would have access of it. They can affect all the future reprints of it. 

 

Tournaments would have it so that they announce the changes to the card so that people who play it know what has changed. And it really wouldn't bother casual people because casual people don't really care, and someone can buy the battle pack and there might be an insert stating the change.

 

I don't know if that makes sense, mainly because I'm not explaining it correctly, but it seems like a reprint would fix the problem permanently. And it uses the function of the LCG to a tee.

 

Erratta can be done without reprinting. 

 

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 an earrata is great for clearing up word choice but something this drastic like changing a cost should be a reprint w:i is already tried to make so u didnt have to buy multiples of one pack

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I don't believe it...I can understand a disagreement for banning from a philosophic point of view...But I really don't undersatnd what make people think that VTHC is not A WRONG card.

There are no theories anymore, there are FACTS. It's not a matter of meta superiority or the like...It's a matter of cards.

 

I repeat:

- Unique? Doesn't fix it. A single quest makes the difference anyway.

- Create anti-quest cards? Allowing sideboard? It's not solving the problem. It just adds some "auto-includes" JUST because a single cards cannot be banned. It's crazy.

Orc Reanimator WILL be a strong deck, but it doesn't have any consistant chance: Chaos can be great as well...We can find some new inputs in Dark Elves mill decks...But everything stops moving when facing "IT". :) 

 

I think we're very honest in "fighting this war" :) We have a lot of Empire players and every one wants to see VTHC banned.

The game won't never grow up until some tough decision will be made: this game suffers balance more than any other LCG. I saw the Agot Italian Regional: 51 players and basically any deck was around, even if there is some superiority of some archetypes...It happens...But there the player makes the difference.

With OUR meta, you can be a genius in deckbuilding, but there's nothing to do against a deck that just needs 2 cards in play and 2 resources per turn. 

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they can do what they want with the card but until they do in fact make a change, DB.Cooper has graced the internet with a nigh-unparalleled decklist, which is keeping me from sifting through the rest of my cards in hopes of finding something better to play.

 

that's a sad state for an enjoyable card game to be at. Dead. i believe what i've read as accurate as humanly possible and there's no reason to build another deck that isn't 100% Empire VTHC-Judgement hate...if that exhists...even with a sideboard.

 

see you all again after a meaningful announcement because as far as Legend's card pool offering an answer to VTHC, it didn't happen. I'm in doubt that the next set will either. i'd think that a month or more is a long time for a company to have their product collecting dust under other competitor's card games...

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Hi for everybody.
Would not be needed according to me to ban,only limited( strong sheet that's true).
With this much strength 1 whole pack of sheet who there could be to prohibit,let us be recognisingbak.
Since there is questingl word quite vulnerable,the being is collected from him

 

hi for everybody

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Verena may be powerful but there are a lot of sleeping cards too. Dwarf decks have so many insane synergies for instance.

I could perhaps go for restrictions but bans? Nope. Then again doesn't really matter I'm a casual player and there is no tournament circuit over here. Nor will there ever be. The game is thankfully not geared towards tournament-play nor promoted much in this manner.

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-Unique? Doesn't fix it. A single quest makes the difference anyway.

I disagreee, makeing VTHC Uniqe would make a diffrence.  With 3 ancient maps and 3 VTHC quest there is a very strong deck  that is build around just VTHC itself.  What makes VTHC so strong is that you are able do move around zones more enemy units/supports  that he is able to field in a single turn.

Another thing is that lagends changed much, taking out a single unit holding a mission is not a problem. Just recent tournament in my region was won by chaos ! Highes place held by VTHC deck was 4-th.

 

-Create anti-quest cards? Allowing sideboard? It's not solving the problem. It just adds some "auto-includes" JUST because a single cards cannot be banned. It's crazy.

I strongly agree, banning any card is crazy and absurd. Restricting VTHC also won`t solve the problem, as VTHC is a the problem itself. Imperial players would just ajust their decks.

 

I agree with the Make "Visit the Haunted City" unique and then add it and 'Judgement of Verena" to the restricted list argument. .

Strong disagree with judgment of verena on restricted list. Judgment is a strong card, just many other ( sorc. of tzeench mentioned ), but this is not a sufficent argument for adding it to restricted list. Verena decks also don`t use much cards on that are on the restricted list - so what`s the problem ? 

Recent releases added a lot of development control, deck based around judgment of verena isn`t a thing that players are defenceless.

 

But everything stops moving when facing "IT". :)

 That is not true. Good build of DE discard or a Chaos unit removal are able to beat a VTHC deck with some effort. If you don`t know how to play against VTHC the problem isnt in the card itself.

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Personally, I would hate for any card to be banned. Having said that, the only time I've seen a Haunted City deck lose is during a mirror match or if the player makes mistakes. If played correctly, it is basically unstoppable. 

The issue with the restricted list is this: it isn't really geared to stop individual cards, but to break up combos. If The Haunted City is restricted, then you must certainly need to restrict Ancient Map and maybe A Noble Quest, as well. I wonder if FFG wants to continue putting cards on the restricted list at this rate.

I think making changes to the card is the better solution. Make it more expensive, so that it isn't playable right away. The report is that these imperial decks hardly need any extra resources to get going. This can upset that imbalance. You can also increase the amount of tokens it takes to activate it's ability, so that it doesn't work quite as quickly. If gauged correctly, these changes can slow down it's efficiency without making the card useless. Yes, it will be a major errata, but sometimes such things are necessary.    


 
 

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Titan said:

 

If The Haunted City is restricted, then you must certainly need to restrict Ancient Map and maybe A Noble Quest, as well. I wonder if FFG wants to continue putting cards on the restricted list at this rate.

 

You can and if the RL goes on, certainly must, have multiple RL, because using RL only to break combos implies many thing as you begun to say.

Having ancient map on the RL is too strong for the ancient map (or maybe not).

 

The combo Breaker RL (if needed)

The ressource booster breaker RL (it's by far the aim of the current RL, etc etc etc).

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Shindulus said:

Titan said:

 

If The Haunted City is restricted, then you must certainly need to restrict Ancient Map and maybe A Noble Quest, as well. I wonder if FFG wants to continue putting cards on the restricted list at this rate.

 

You can and if the RL goes on, certainly must, have multiple RL, because using RL only to break combos implies many thing as you begun to say.

Having ancient map on the RL is too strong for the ancient map (or maybe not).

 

The combo Breaker RL (if needed)

The ressource booster breaker RL (it's by far the aim of the current RL, etc etc etc).

 

 

This why the simpler answer is to rewrite the tourney rules before continuing to set precedent about cards that should be placed on a restricted list. 

 

The demand that we can continually place cards on RLs to create balance is problematical because card games are about player skill and this skill is manifested both before play (deck construction) and during play (deck execution).  While net-decking nominally takes away the skilled aspect of deck construciton it still takes some skill to execute the deck correctly.      Execution comes in two forms, combo-execution and opponent nuetralization.  To the former, combos are an integral aspect of any card game but this rush to place powerful cards on the RL means we have a Farenheit 451 situation on our hands. 

Another important aspect of skill is how players respond to the strenghts and weakness of their opponents decks.   here's the analogy I use to describe this situation to my local play group:  Blaming cards and not the rules is like blaming the fever but ignoring the flu.

Why is this a valid analogy?

The biggest complaint about JoV+VTHC comes from the tournament scene.   Thus may be the problem is not just cards (though they are quite powerful) the problem could be the tournament formats which actually induces players to play such decisively powerful cards because they know the anti-verena deck is too weak against most other types.   Players need more flexibility to deal with powerful decks during a tournament (execution) and not just before a tournment (construction). 

 

Ultimately, as long as the tournament rules mandate single decks, this problem will never go away.  Construction alone does not balanced game make. 

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Mouse_PL said:

But everything stops moving when facing "IT". :)

 That is not true. Good build of DE discard or a Chaos unit removal are able to beat a VTHC deck with some effort. If you don`t know how to play against VTHC the problem isnt in the card itself.

HI. :)

 

We DO know how to play against VTHC. I don't know your decklist, but you know ours. If noone wins with VTHC decks may means that noone builds/plays it at the best of its possibilities.

If an archetype is strong (and it has been demonstrated with facts) it means that players who demonstrate it have at least tested against any single possible opponent.

Playin' a VTHC deck correctly at the beginning is very hard, even if the card helps a lot, but WHEN you get the dynamics, you learn and play it very easily. 

 

The list that won our regional (with its variables) beats ANY deck on a regular basis. It can lose some matches, yes, it happens, but not with a consistant ratio: it means that it WINS what really matters, unfortunately. And this is not a GOOD thing. 

 

Now things can change, but we're stating this by MONTHS and not for our glory, as everyone already know. :)

 

And Verena? No cards in the restricted? :) With a VTHC errataing-banning, Verena has WILHELM and before VTHC became the dominant archetype, VERENA KINGDOM decks got the same glory, with the difference that the KZ-based Verena deck can find a couple of strong opponents (so to speak, VTHC is still there). 

Wilhelm is the strongest hero in the meta and perfectly feets VTHC/Verena logic. If you want to avoid the USUAL synergies, restrict Verena and everything's normal. A strong deck needs a difficult deckbuilding process: that's not how it's right now. 

 

Don't believe it? Get the list, follow the instructions, play 5 times per week (10-20 games each time) then write down the ratio. Played correctly VTHC deck is "frightening".

Our ratio (a "national" average ratio) was 95-5 (and I'm kind) with any deck aside Orc Reanimator, that gets its 25-30. 

Dark Elf? 2-3 wins out of 50 games. Chaos? Some chances WITH legends and upcoming stuff, but right now, no chances (Church of Sigmar ALONE destroys it and the ONLY card that is really a problem is the SORCERESS). 

The VTHC leaves you with ONE card and THREE resources for the WHOLE game. What do you think you can do when I start drawin' 3 cards first turn and getti' 4-5 cards per turn?

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The game is slightly getting boring, every tournament there are more blue decks based on VTHC than before. Soon there will be mono-race tournaments!

I had an idea, i thought about a new card, like a quest remover (today there's no way to remove a quest ), something like "Fallen god" or "Wrong battle", a tactic that can remove from game a quest card in play.

But now i'm sure it's not the right answer, because there will be 2 meta: Empire VTHC and "Deck-against-VTHC". A little less boring, but still boring. 

VTHC has to be finally banned (or at least fixed: for example if you need 4 tokens to move a card, maybe it will be eless powerful)

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I believe that we all think that VtHC is the best card in WH:I at the moment, but I think that some people are overreacting with idea of banning it. In my opinion the problem is that it can have 95% win ratio, but against weak and medicore decks/players. It strenght lies in its ability to control the board in a way that any other deck can't, and without much effort. If a player knows how to play againts it and have some sence how this matchup is different against any other, VtHC player will have big problems. I have seen games in which players wanted to gain more control over the board againts VtHC but they quickly lost. Only deck that can compete in terms of controling the board is ORC control which in my opinion have 50/50 chance against it.

I think that this deck is beatable (I might be alone believing it). Players just have to play their decks in different maner and change they gamestyles just for this matchup. Some cards are useless againts it, some are more powerful than againts any other deck. The only think really neccesery in this matchup is to remember not to panic, and convert one's gameplan so it can cope with VtHC.

 

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I agree that something needs to be done about Visit the Haunted City.

 

Of the suggestions raised thus far, I think making the quest Unique, then also adding it to the Restricted list is probably the best option.

The goal here isn't to make Empire control decks unplayable. The goal is to knock them down a rung on the balance ladder. When making balance adjustments, smaller steps are better. And placing a Unique VTHC on the Restricted list would force Empire players to choose between the best two "relocate the other player's stuff" cards (the other of course being Wilhelm) they have.

As for Judgement of Verena, it's a strong card. However, I don't believe it belongs on the Restricted list. It takes a significant number of "prep" cards included in the deck to make it work, and in many instances it can be recovered from.

One suggestion that intrigues me is the addition of sideboards. I do wonder about match lengths, but I think sideboards would open up a lot of possibilities that might help balance deck builds.

The LAST thing I want to see is magic bullets printed (in this instance, a card that would remove a quest). When I see a company start to print magic bullets in an attempt to "balance" power cards, rather than deal with the problem cards via banning/restricting/errata, I see a situation where game play is about to take a nose dive. (Hey, you built a deck based on card X? Good for me, I have the counter in my deck, so I win! ... OR... Hey, you built a deck based on card X? Shoot, I have counters for Y and Z, but not X, so you win.)

Just my two cents.

Papa


 

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