Clarification on the workings of Deadly

[finitesquarewell 0]

I likely should know this, but time for another one of my n00bish questions: How exactly does deadly work? More specifically, during a MIL challenge can the defending player select a character to satisfy Deadly who has already gone moribund to MIL claim? (This is important for the purposes of Longship Black Wind, and for the rarer situation in which a defending player has multiple characters participating in a MIL challenge, loses that challenge, and has to satisfy Deadly at the same time.) My strong suspicion is that you cannot select a character to die for Deadly who has already gone moribund after being selected for MIL claim, based on the seemingly parallel reasoning you would not be able to select a participating character to die to Deadly if that character had already gone moribund via a passive effect that was activated as the result of the challenge resolving, and which was resolved before the first player chose to resolve Deadly. That is to say, I'm pretty sure there's no need for a clarification on Deadly because it's already covered by the usual workings of the moribund business, but I'm double checking because of my n00bish tendencies.

[ktom 598]

finitesquarewell said:

I'm pretty sure there's no need for a clarification on Deadly because it's already covered by the usual workings of the moribund business

That would be correct, ser.

As ever, if a character is already moribund for one thing, it cannot be chosen for an effect (like Deadly) that would remove it from play a second time. That's why people pretty much never defend a Deadly military challenge with more than 1 character. (Maybe you'll be able to sucker them into it more often with Black Wind, maybe not. Time will tell.)

[Penfold3 0]

 Two words, Veteran Spearman. 

[Mathias Fricot 0]

If you save a character from death via claim, they won't actually enter a moribund state. This would make them vulnerable to be killed via deadly. 

[ktom 598]

More to the point, "as the result of MIL challenge claim" doesn't cover passives (like Deadly) or Responses that happen during the resolution of that military challenge.

 

[Mathias Fricot 0]

So in short, yes? It provides an interesting way to get rid of duplicates.

[ktom 598]

Mathias Fricot said:

So in short, yes? It provides an interesting way to get rid of duplicates.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking a question. I thought you were making a comment about the Veteran Spearman note - so you can understand my confusion since saving and Veteran Spearman have nothing to do with each other.

Deadly is potentially an additional kill during a round. I'm not sure how "interesting" of a way it is to get rid of dupes. Any additional kill can do that.

[Mathias Fricot 0]

I see the confusion, no worries. I just played a game a few weeks ago where I was staring down Rhaegal with 8 dupes. ripping them off with claim and deadly together sortof make it a little faster. So does Cannot Be Saved, obv.

[the1andonlime 0]

Mathias Fricot said:

 

I see the confusion, no worries. I just played a game a few weeks ago where I was staring down Rhaegal with 8 dupes. ripping them off with claim and deadly together sortof make it a little faster. So does Cannot Be Saved, obv.

 

 

How did Rhaegal get 8 dupes when you are only allowed to put 3 copies of Rhaegal (or any other card, for that matter) in your deck?

AFAIK, the maximum number of dupes on Rhaegal (not counting Jaqen shennigans) is 5 (2 Rhaegal dupes and 3 Green Hatchling (QoD)).

[rwjohnson 0]

My guess is he was using pay a gold to search for a duplicate and using Riders of the Red Fork + the Hatchlings. 

[Paddosan 0]

perpetual noob said:

My guess is he was using pay a gold to search for a duplicate and using Riders of the Red Fork + the Hatchlings. 

You cannot use Riders as a duplicate: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=486320&efpag=1#488466

 

[Rogue30 60]

Paddosan said:

You cannot use Riders as a duplicate: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=486320&efpag=1#488466

 

Look at current FAQ.

[Saturnine 47]

 What's the point of having so many dupes on Core Set Rhaegal anyhow? He's not getting any better

[Winged_Human 0]

4Str Stealthy Mil/Power Dragon that doesn't kneel to attack with QoD Dany.

 

[Saturnine 47]

Winged_Human said:

4Str Stealthy Mil/Power Dragon that doesn't kneel to attack with QoD Dany.

 

Seems like an awful lot of effort to keep a character alive whose worth is largely dependent on other cards (Dany, Yunkai). I much prefer the new Rhaegal. But hey, if it worked for them, all the more power to them (no pun intended).

[Hratgard 0]

well i was a little bit confused as well , about how it is "resolved" the deadly ability aswell . so i got some questions aswell .

 

1st ) the attacker initiates a mil challenge with a deadly char and his plot has claim of 1 . the defender decides to defend with 2 chars and he loses . how many char must kill 1 (satisfy deadly and claim) or he must kill onlt from participants (for deadly ) and 1 more for claim ? .

 

2nd) the attacker initiates a mil challenge with deadly and the defender opposes with 1 char that has immunity to character abilities or trigger abilities from opponent chars , and the defender wins , does he have to kill the participant char due to deadly ability or he is immune due to his immunity ? .

 

sorry if my questions are noobish , but here in greece the game just launched , and we don't have expirienced players who can answer to this questions .

 

 

[the1andonlime 0]

Hratgard said:

well i was a little bit confused as well , about how it is "resolved" the deadly ability aswell . so i got some questions aswell .

 

1st ) the attacker initiates a mil challenge with a deadly char and his plot has claim of 1 . the defender decides to defend with 2 chars and he loses . how many char must kill 1 (satisfy deadly and claim) or he must kill onlt from participants (for deadly ) and 1 more for claim ? .

 

2nd) the attacker initiates a mil challenge with deadly and the defender opposes with 1 char that has immunity to character abilities or trigger abilities from opponent chars , and the defender wins , does he have to kill the participant char due to deadly ability or he is immune due to his immunity ? .

 

sorry if my questions are noobish , but here in greece the game just launched , and we don't have expirienced players who can answer to this questions .

 

 

1) You need to realise that claim and deadly happens at two different (but very close) timings, and that you need to resolve one before the other takes place. Check out the FAQ in the support section for more details on timing structure.

So in your example, what happens is this:

- Attack wins MIL challenge
- Defender must fulfill claim, choosing one of the characters to die
- Chosen character is moribund:dead pile (assuming no saves)
- Renown kicks in for attacker
- Deadly (and any other passive effects) kicks in
- Defender must choose one participating character to die. Since the only other eligible character is already moribund:dead pile, it cannot be chosen, so the remaining one must be chosen to die
- Chosen character becomes moribund:dead pile
- Everything else

In the end, both are killed, but when and how is important.

2) Keywords (Renown, Deadly, Immunity, No attachments, Stealth, etc) as defined by the Core Rules are not character abilities, so Immunity to character abilities do not protect characters from deadly.
 

[Saturnine 47]

the1andonlime said:

 

 

1) You need to realise that claim and deadly happens at two different (but very close) timings, and that you need to resolve one before the other takes place. Check out the FAQ in the support section for more details on timing structure.

So in your example, what happens is this:

- Attack wins MIL challenge
- Defender must fulfill claim, choosing one of the characters to die
- Chosen character is moribund:dead pile (assuming no saves)
- Renown kicks in for attacker
- Deadly (and any other passive effects) kicks in
- Defender must choose one participating character to die. Since the only other eligible character is already moribund:dead pile, it cannot be chosen, so the remaining one must be chosen to die
- Chosen character becomes moribund:dead pile
- Everything else

In the end, both are killed, but when and how is important.

 

A further clarification. Though in the above example, a participating character is chosen to die for claim, you can also choose a character that did not participate in the challenge. Only for Deadly it is relevant whether a character participated in the challenge.

[ktom 598]

Saturnine said:

A further clarification. Though in the above example, a participating character is chosen to die for claim, you can also choose a character that did not participate in the challenge. Only for Deadly it is relevant whether a character participated in the challenge.

And this is important for the far more common example of Deadly in a military challenge: only 1 defender.

What many people will do when defending against a Deadly military challenge is defend with just 1 character, then choose it to die for claim. That way, when it comes time to kill something for Deadly, the only eligible character (the participating character) is already dead and there is nothing for Deadly to kill.

That little trick is why Deadly is so much more devastating on a character with an INT or POW icon than on a character with a MIL icon.

[Skowza 9]

I suspect this doesn't work simply b/c I wish it were so.  Scenario:

I have a Feral Pack and a Carrion Bird in play.  I make a challenge with them both, stealthing some claim-soak Refugee character and my opponent defends with something valuable like Robert so it isnt unopposed.  I win the challenge and use the Response on the Carrion Bird to shuffle it out of play; I now only control Stark characters, and therefore Feral Pack is Deadly.  Does my opponent have to kill Robert as a result of the Feral Pack being Deadly?

Deadly Core Rules:
During a challenge, if the attacking player controls
the most participating characters with the
“Deadly” keyword, the defending player must
choose and kill a defending participating character
after the challenge resolves.

I'm not sure about the timing on this and I dug through the FAQ unsuccessfully, thanks!

[ktom 598]

Skowza said:

I'm not sure about the timing on this and I dug through the FAQ unsuccessfully, thanks!

Doesn't work, for 2 reasons:

1. Basic Timing : Deadly is resolved as a passive effect. (That's even in the newest FAQ, on the last page of clarification questions.) Passives always come before Responses. So by the time you use Carrion Bird's Response to shuffle it back into your deck, the opportunity to resolve Deadly is over and done with.

2. Moribund Rules : Even when you use Carrion Bird's Response to shuffle it back into your deck from play, it is technically still on the board, moribund, until the end of the action window - so Feral Pack's ability will not kick in during that "resolve challenge" window, anyway.

[Skowza 9]

I get a little confused about the timing sometimes, but I should have known the answer based on the Moribund response you gave.  As always, thanks ktom.