"Declared" attackers and defenders

[Aertes 0]

I'd like to see this clear:

When a character enters a challenge as attacker or defender, is it irrelevant the method used to do so?. I mean, is it considered to be "declared" even if he was played from hand or entered the challenge via an ability?.

A friend of mine showed me a part of the rulebook that seem to say so. According to this:

I'm the defending player. An opponent declared a challenge agaisnt me and knelt a character of STR 4. Let's say Walder Frey is in play and standing.

Now, I use The Wall to put a Night Watch from my hand as defender. Is that considered "declaring" a defender and so Walder Frey will now kneel and be in the winning side?.

[ktom 598]

Aertes said:

When a character enters a challenge as attacker or defender, is it irrelevant the method used to do so?. I mean, is it considered to be "declared" even if he was played from hand or entered the challenge via an ability?.

No.

A character is "declared" as an attacker or defender if it enters the challenge in the usual way - by being assigned the status by the player during the framework action events specifically allowing a player to do so.

If a character enters a challenge in any other way (through card effect), it becomes a "participating" character, but it has not been "declared." When you get to challenge resolution, it only matters that a character is participating - no matter how it got there - but for the purposes of activating passive effects or triggering Response effects, "declared" is very specific.

 

Aertes said:

Now, I use The Wall to put a Night Watch from my hand as defender. Is that considered "declaring" a defender and so Walder Frey will now kneel and be in the winning side?.

The "after defenders are declared" passive is only checked one time each challenge - during the framework window for "attacker assigns stealth/defender declares defending characters." A card effect that gives a character a status of "participating:defending side" is not "declaring" a defender and will not activate "after defenders are declared" effects such as Walder.

[Aertes 0]

Thats what i thought, but then he shows me page 14 from rulebook, Step 2 of Resolving Challenges.

There it says "Kneel characters (or enable them to participate by some card effect)". My friend says that those brackets means that any way of enabling a character to participate in a challenge is the same as "declaring", and I don't know how to discuss against that.

[Ratatoskr 34]

This passage refers to characters like the KL Knight of Flowers, that don't kneel to attack or defend. When a character enters a challenge through a card effect, like the Greatjon or LoW Catelyn or when you use The Wall, they do so at an entirely different point of time.

[Rogue30 60]

Ratatoskr said:

This passage refers to characters like the KL Knight of Flowers, that don't kneel to attack or defend.

It's more about cards like Ser Balon Swann, while he has no intrigue icon.

[ktom 598]

Aertes said:

There it says "Kneel characters (or enable them to participate by some card effect)".

That's not what is says. What it actually says is:

"kneel any number of his or her characters
that have the corresponding challenge icon
(or are enabled to participate by some card effect)
to defend against your challenge."

Aertes said:

My friend says that those brackets means that any way of enabling a character to participate in a challenge is the same as "declaring", and I don't know how to discuss against that.

When you look at it in context, what's in the brackets is acknowledging that there are ways to make someone eligible to be declared as a defender, other than icons or kneeling. It's more there for card effects that can let a character participate even without the icon, or without kneeling to be declared as a defender, or to be declared if they are already kneeling. It is not saying that any card effect that puts a character into the challenge is "declaring" an attacker/defender. It is saying that effects can modify the eligibility of characters to be declared.

Consider the fact that you can use abilities that would put characters into the challenge as a defender "Before and between (but not during) each step" (see pg. 13), meaning that you can get characters into the challenge as defenders outside of the "declare defenders" step. That's the whole point. Card effects used outside that step do not qualify as "declaring" the defenders.

You friend is giving too much weight to the "short version" of the description of declaring challenges. It does not take into account the more advanced description of the timing (both overall and for challenges) in the FAQ.

 

[Aertes 0]

Once again, thanks a lot all.