Did i give away and change too much? (Minor Spoilers)

[Destroyerhive 0]

Ok so today i ran my first session with a new group, they were quite experienced roleplayers but new to wfrp and the system.

 

I'll give you a rundown of our first session and then you can tell me if i have given away and ruined Eye for an eye and how i can alter it to accomodate what i said.

 

Our players:

Thorrbrand the Trollslayer

Amroth the Wood Elf Huntress

Konrad the Initiate of Morr

 

We started with A Day Late a Shilling Short, i couldnt think of a way to have the wood elf and troll slayer be friends/companions and so i slightly altered it. Konrad's masters at the gardens had a dream, a dream of death and destruction on a massive scale. They sent him on a quest to find out where and how it would happen. On his journeys he met a dwarf who he explained his dream to. The troll slayer hearing of this dream thinks that surely something that could cause so much death would be worthy of an honourable death. The plot is then the usual, Birgitta comes to them and ask for help to find her friend Rutger. They agree in return for a small fee. An elf, Vaerun, comes to them and asks them to find a box that was on that carriage which is important to him. They set off the next morning. When they come across the cart i then introduced Amroth the Wood Elf who has been tracking the beastmen party for a week and comes across them just as the others reach the end of the road. She notices the others and waits to see what they do.

 

The troll slayer, quite rightly, charges down the road roaring and holding his great axe above his head. Birgitta follows along shouting to Rutger she is coming to save him and the initiate plods along HOPELESSLY failing to gain any source of favour from Morr at all during the encounter. The trollslayer quickly cuts two ungors apart with ease and then moves towards the cart.

 

This is where hiding the wood elf felt like too much of an advantage, Using sniper shot and accurate shot the wood elf fires at the Gor at the back of the cart, one shot in each shoulder. Twice the Gor dramatically fails an observation check to find the source of the arrows, so badly that i had him even look up to the sky to see whether the gods were throwing arrows at him. It was at this point that the wood elf fired another shot, straight into the head of the gor killing it. The troll slayer picked off the last ungor and they were left all around the cart.

 

Then came the emergence of Klaus. The troll slayer successfully intimidating him about why he never helped to fight, but only leading to him hiding in the doorway of his carriage. The elf, observant as ever noticed that the merchant is very defensive of his carriage not letting anyone in and trying to use his hidden hand to cover something up within. They drag him out and find the crate but as they get it out into the open more beastmen arrive. Another fight ensues, moving up the road the party slowly fight and move away from their enemies. The huntress never fails to impress, killing two more ungors, a gor and then finally stealing the wargor kill from the troll slayer. The troll slayer gets badly beat up while running backwards trying to help Birgitta carry Rutger, getting an ungor charge in his back.

 

At the end of the conflict they realise that Klaus has run off with the crate into the woods. Amroth follows and soon catches up and fires a warning arrow right into the tree next to the merchant. It is amazing how good a sniper she is becoming. The merchant soon turns back and begs for help and forgiveness after running away. The wood elf knocked him over and bought the crate back to the party with the merchant tagging behind begging for its return.

 

They manage to get back to the town with little problems where Birgitta gives them a small amount of coins for the saving of Rutger and leaves to go to the shrine of Shallya to get him help. Outside the Tavern Klaus begs for his crate back, saying he has to take it to someone. When pressed/intimidated he gives up the info that he had to take it to Grunewald Lodge, if he didnt he would be killed and those he loved would be taken. This is where my players became very....'difficult'. They are a suspicious and paranoid bunch and doubted everything they were told, wanted to know the whole story behind everything and couldnt take my subtle hints to go to the Lodge. They kicked Klaus away and took the box inside telling him they cared not for his lies.

 

They go inside and are confronted by Vaerun. The troll slayer goes off to recover his wounds (through drink). The elf and the initiiate (the untrusting pair) refuse to give up the crate, even when opened by vaerun. There is a scroll within covered in elven writings. The wood elf trys to read the writings around it but only understands the word Chaos, Unblinking Eye and Destruction. Vaerun ends up begging them and telling them they have to give it to him so he can have it destroyed. They wont believe his a good eye, mainly due to the wood elves natural hated of high elves. And here is where i gave stuff away and changed it:

 

I had to have Vaerun explain about how lord aschaffenburg came to be head of the lodge and how there have been suspicious goings on there for weeks. How he suspects something chaotic going on there. They eventually give in and will go to the lodge to investigate, but for a worthy coinage for their work, the night spent in the inns best room with as much beer as they require and also on the promise that vaerun accompanies them so they dont feel like they are being sent into a trap by him. They also go together to try find Klaus but find out that he has already left the town and has headed in the direction of the Lodge.

 

So have i given away too much by telling them how Aschaffenburg came to be head after the dissappearance of the previous owner. How everything happening there has been suspicious and how it is probably linked with chaos and the unblinking eye. I am now worried that my players will go their looking for a fight and battle. I will have Vaerun tell them that they cannot fight an entire villa, especially if the taint of chaos is here and they should be very careful and secretive. I am tempted to have them find Klaus' body a mile out from the villa being ripped apart from beastmen, and when they investigate they will be ambushed. I feel maybe i have just given my players a MASSIVE hint for an eye for an eye, not sure if i have ruined too much of the suprise of it though.

Any thoughts on this? I'll fill you in with how it goes after our next session in a week. I'm going to try promote a LOTR Legolas/Gimli relationship between the slayer and huntress, try and get them seeking common ground through competition and killing, might be hard though, the troll slayer is VERY peeved at his chance to kill 2 gors and a wargor being taken from him. Literally the the wargor had an arm missing and a massive gash in his chest, just waiting for the death blow and instead finding an arrow in his head. Impressive.

[commuterzombie 20]

 I think that you're okay so long as you impress on the players that murdering innocents (and especially innocent nobles!) is a fast track to a run in with the law. This will motivate them to weed out the corruption (rather than just kill them all and let Sigmar sort them out!) and then you can run the adventure more or less as written. 

A troll slayer and a wood elf will make interesting pretend-servants though, you might need to work a different angle in there

[Callidon 143]

From what you've written I think you can salvage portions of Eye for and Eye but I don't think you'll get to have a "by the book" experience here.  Ah well, thinking on your toes can be fun.  Look at the adventure like a tool box and see which ones fit the kind of whackyness your players are likely to inflict upon you.  I can see two obvious courses of action that your players could engage in given their previous actions...but they'll most likely do something no one could predict.

If the players steam-roll toward the lodge with the intent of murdering the entire complex as chaos-aligned evil-doers they are probably in for a rough session.  So far they've had a fairly fantastic bout of luck and isolated combats playing to at least one character's strengths.  The three-man seige mentality is probably going to go really horribly.  I wouldn't try to disuade them from that course of action if they really just want to hack-n-slash.  Some players enjoy the thrill of imaginary spilt blood ; ).  However, it will be on you to play the defenses of the lodge to maximum efficiency and while the players may murder the first few people they come accross, eventually things will begin to go south for them as fatigue, stress and wounds start to pile up (ie. once you kick in the door and start shooting up bank tellers at a bank robery there isn't much room for a nap and a biscuit).  Within the materials at your disposal for Eye for an Eye you could do a number of things with timelines or adversary actions.  You can ditch Chapter 2 in its entirety and go right to the ritual being completed so that the players bust in the door and start fighting NPCs that would have otherwise been allies and then deal with an actual daemon of chaos to boot...and the large beastman attack.  A bit over the top, but if your players are going to wander the countryside *****-slapping peasants and stabbing everything that moves they're going to get worked into a very sharp and bloody corner.  They could stand and die, or flee and be hunted by a rampaging herd of beastmen....both pretty grisley but well within the combat oriented realm of their enjoyment perhaps?

The most GM friendly scenario is that the players attempt to infiltrate the lodge to find proofs of their suspicions.  You will need to keep them from meeting any of the pin-pointed NPC's that you gave away previously since there will be nothing that can convince them of those people's innocence (ie. they've been told Dracula lives in that castle on the hill so they don't want to hear anything about him being a frail old man with a pocket full of candy and a love of Sigmar).  Just have those people be away from the lodge or some such.  The PC's can then engage with the investigation as written in Chapter 2 while the obvious bad people are away.  They get to feel like super stealth strike force theta and really they're just going along with the adventure (sort of ).  This will hopefully wind them down a bit from their previous blood-lust and they'll be more tractable to winning over the hound-master and other NPC's to help them later on.  I would still expect them to assume that everyone is a cultist so you'll have to really tip-toe a bit with NPC interactions to keep them on the investigation and not on "AYE Cultists! We RIDE!"  The dinner is something I would plan on avoiding...there's just too much opportunity for things to go south with you managing multiple NPC's and having key NPC's in the room.  It is a fairly significant event in removing much of the lodge from action but perhaps you can conceive another way for mass Schlaf poisonings.  Then you progress to Chapter 3 and it should probably work out fine. 

Hopefully the players lean more toward the 2nd route, as it will be the most fun for you to be able to run the adventure you've prepared.  When in doubt, and if the players are being contrary and difficult...drop the hammer and show them how this lodge has remained in place for as long as it has and staved off beastman attacks.  Heck maybe they can even take the legal blame for the beastmen and daemon in Chapter 3, wouldn't that be nice?

 

[Destroyerhive 0]

Thank you very much for you ideas

 

After a day away i've had time to think and i agree, it is salvageable. My group is very bloodthirsty and like their violence, especially the dwarf, he was adamant that he had intimidation trained and specialised in violent forms of it.

I think i will have Vaerun accompany them through the whole adventure and beg them to be careful and quiet when they arrive and see if they cant take a look around and infiltrate the lodge before charging in and getting killed. I will also have Lord aschaffenberg as a rather large jovial and friendly noble (SANTA ) and have him be very friendly and open to them, taking them aside and asking them to join him for a meal as it has been so long since he hosted for visitors, and when they are alone he can suggest to them about the mysterious and suspicious nature of the staff at the lodge.

 

I really do hope they dont try running in and going straight to violence, if they do i may have to have the cultists within the lodge become very paranoid and rushed and start trying to carry out the ritual before the party get to them, thinking that the party knows about them and are attacking to stop them.

 

Looking at E4AE there are 11 cultists, i'd imagine Gregor (leader), Sieger (physician), Otto (librarian) and one of the male cultist servants would be at the ritual, the servant there to help subdue whoever they take as a sacrifice. That leaves 7 cultists for them to fight through as they go through the house.

Also dependant on how quickly they go violent they have the guard captain and soldiers at the wall attacking them and Olver and his hounds. All of these may be enough to punish the players. If they do take out the guards quickly and get in to stop the ritual i may have the beastmen take their chance and rush the walls aswell.

 

If they follow this path then i will definitely have them chased by the authorities. If they kill Ashaffenberg i will have a witch hunter after them, and have the Aschaffenberg family maybe send an assassin to find them and bring them to justice/get revenge. If the ritual happens there are many ways i could continue the story, if they kill the deamon i will try have Gregor escape and become a nemesis enemy seeking revenge against the party. If they fail to kill the deamon it will go to the nearby town and they can have the chance to go follow it and try again killing it. I'd also have the witch hunter accuse them of summoning the deamon and try kill them for that.

 

On the other they could choose not to be violent, go inside and meet Aschaffenberg and just follow the E4AE campaign, but with knowledge of the cult and suspician already there. We'll see, but i hope they follow it peacefully for the most part.

 

 

On another note, if the troll slayer survives this campaign i would imagine he is going to start getting nearer to the career completion. How do you all handle a troll slayers progression, obviously the next stage is giant slayer, but do you make your troll slayer have to kill a troll first before he can progress. I thought it might be fitting and make sense.

A slayers progression requires them killing this creature, do you have them have to kill it alone, or would it affect the slayers honour too much if they gained help in the kill. I am thinking our dwarf already has MASSIVE problems with the wood elf, i dont think he would take kindly to the wood elf helping him with the troll? Opinions?

 

 

 

[donbaloo2 0]

I wouldnt worry too much about it Destroyerhive. We are about to go into Eye for an Eye as well, after a two session lead in. We established that our party already works for Aschaffenberg and in our intro sessions we've already established some suspicion as well.

Interestingly, I anticipate my group doing the opposite of what you're expecting from yours. My guys are more socially built and I'm anticipating some direct social confrontations very quickly within the estate to get all the information out in the open. Not sure what they'll manage to do with it though.

And if your guys just go in swinging, I'd anticipate them getting their tails handed to them. Until they are able to CONVINCINGLY present some incriminating evidence, the entire lodge will be against them should they draw arms. Good luck surviving against the armed guards, the huntsman (who's a military vet) and his hounds, and the rest of the staff. 

We've had one battle so far, our coachman and armored mercenary against 5 thugs who were completely average. I didn't even use fortune dice for outnumbered or ANY of my ACE budget and the PCs very nearly died. Would have died actually had the surviving two thugs not ran off. We gained a very quick respect for Warhammer's tough combat.

 

[Callidon 143]

Destroyerhive said:

On another note, if the troll slayer survives this campaign i would imagine he is going to start getting nearer to the career completion. How do you all handle a troll slayers progression, obviously the next stage is giant slayer, but do you make your troll slayer have to kill a troll first before he can progress. I thought it might be fitting and make sense.

A slayers progression requires them killing this creature, do you have them have to kill it alone, or would it affect the slayers honour too much if they gained help in the kill. I am thinking our dwarf already has MASSIVE problems with the wood elf, i dont think he would take kindly to the wood elf helping him with the troll? Opinions?

 

Don't let the Slayer's progression derail things too much for you.  If he progresses into Giant Slayer without having slain a Troll in single combat it will probably work out just fine.  If it is organic to the story and the oportunity presents itself then sure, having a Slayer face off against a Troll or Giant fits.  But I wouldn't recommend cooking up a reason to have a Giant or Troll show up just because you've got a Slayer on board.

[Destroyerhive 0]

I fully agree Callidon and i definitely wont let my story/adventure be dictated by this. It was just something i always wondered, does the slayer have to kill it on his own, i always considered that he should. But in the circumstances of wfrp i am not sure:

the troll appears. The slayer seeing a chance for his oath to be fulfilled says to his group, 'this ones mine' and goes to fight it.

Do the group stand back and watch? If they join in they are interferring with the slayer's honour but if they stand back and the dwarf does die, they are then stuck facing a troll/giant who has already squished a slayer and is now looking for more food. In my groups case this leaves an initiate of morr and a wood elf hunter alone against an angry troll, and i dont think they would appreciate this.

What are your guys opinions?

 

 

I had a get together with my group today and we discussed the weeks session and how next week would start, seeing if they had any comments or thoughts they wanted to say. They do seem more open to going into the lodge with an inquisitive and open mind rather than with their weapons drawn so we shall see. I will have Vaerun speak to them after they find the merchants body on the road and fight the beastmen. He will make it plain to them how the lodge has survived for years out here in the woods and to be rash and stupid will lead to death. And i will have lord aschaffenberg beg them for help when they are in private, explaining the peculiar behaviour of his staff and asking for help. We'll see, but it looks more promising now.

 

I was thinking of looking at possibilities of keeping the deamon or even Gregor as a recurring enemy. Would a tracker work if the deamon is summoned and each time the deamon is attacked it moves one closer to the end and if they dont kill it in time then it flies off into the sky? Was also thinking when the deamon is summoned my party will definitely charge straight for it, so i might have Gregor sneak away and then he can try get revenge on the party later for ruining his summoning. It would be interesting for him to go away and ask Tzeentch for help on getting revenge against those who ruined the ritual and the gods give him mutations so that he might fight back. Then i could make him a reoccuring nemesis enemy.

[Callidon 143]

Take a look at Doc Stieger as a recurring nemesis.  Gregor is a mutant and controlling the daemon (assuming the ceremony isn't scuttled by the PC's) so the chances for him to get away are decidedly lower, and if he gets away your players are going to want to hunt him down immediately and do him in for all the trouble he caused.  The Doc slipping away during the fight is a bit more plausible especially if the cultists are all wearing something hooded and "culty" to keep the list of who's dead and who's not mysterious.  The doctor could see things going horribly and hit the road and continue his concoctions and awful esoteric research somewhere else and even working with a different group (the Skaven in Edge of Night for instance).  Just something to consider...