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Budmilka_fr

Friedrich VS Counterstrike

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Hello everyone,

During the French Regionals this week end, we encountered a problem with Friedrich and the keyword Counterstrike :

Friedrich Hemmler :"Forced : When this unit is opposed in combat, deal 1 uncancellable damage to each attacker and each defender".

Counterstrike(Rulebook p16) : "Whenever the unit with the counterstrike keyword is declared as a defender, it immediatly deals uncancellable damage equal to this numeric value."

Si here is my question : What happen when Friedrich attacks a zone, and one unit with one remaining HP and Counterstrike 4 is declared as a defender ?

It looks like Friedrich triggers his forced effect "when opposed in combat", and Counterstrike "when a defender is declared". Which one is activated first ? My guess : if "opposed in combat" and "the moment a defender is declared" are the same, then I suppose Counterstrike (which is a constant effect) comes first before the forced effect.

Am I right ? Thanks

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Both effects are triggered, then the Counterstrike effect resolves first (since Keywords are constant effects for the purposes of timing).  Then, even if the Counterstriek damage killed Friedrich, his effect is applied.

If both effects were Forced, then the active player (who controls Friedrich since he was attacking) applies his effect.  Then, even if this effect kills the defender with Counterstrike, the Counterstrike damage is still applied. 

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Entropy42 said:

Both effects are triggered, then the Counterstrike effect resolves first (since Keywords are constant effects for the purposes of timing).  Then, even if the Counterstriek damage killed Friedrich, his effect is applied.

I don't see why Friedrich's effect would be applied if the counterstrike damage kills him? His effect is an action, which cannot be resolved/fizzles if the source of the action has left play. He is no longer there to deal 1 uncancelable damage.

You are right if what you mean is that both trigger conditions are met, but that doesn't mean that both triggered conditions resolve.

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When the player declares the defenders, this triggers both the counterstrike and Friedrich's effect. So both effects are going on the action chain, but counterstrike resolves first because it is a keyword, therefore a constant effect. Even if Friedrich is destroyed as a result, his Forced Action is already on the chain, therefore will resolve even if Friedrich has left play already. Check p. 15 of the manual: "Once an effect has been paid for, that effect is part of the action chain, and the effect resolves even if the source of the effect is removed from play".

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 forced actions does not start a chain, they occur immedatley cannot be interupted and canceled ( rules pg. 15 ) as according to faq 1.4 counter strike is resolved immedatleyi I would say both effects are simultaneous as their trigger conditions are met at one time

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Forced effects don't start a chain, but Tako's answer was still sort of correct, in that both effects (once they are triggered) cannot be removed by removal of their source.  This was a key change in the v1.4 FAQ that I think some people have overlooked.  Previously, once an action was on the stack, it existed independent of the source.  Now, that is still true, but triggered constants and forced effects are treated very similarly.  They are triggered as soon as their condition is met, then you resolve them according to the flowchart.  If the source (in this example, Friedrich) is removed from play before his effect resolves, it still resolves (if possible).

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