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pfeiffer2

Mercenary 52N6 question

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I guess I disagree with you on two points.

1. You said, " ...it was never covered in the rules cause there has been (up til now) no precedent but I believe the only rule is any GF's on a hip that is destroyed are also destroyed." This is incorrect. A carrier could have ground forces on it. Then the owner of the carrier could participate in the political card, "Technology Buy back" or such. And thus a player could sell back his Stasis Capsules. According to you, the carrier with ground forces on it would continue to keep its cargo.

2. Checking for ground force capacity. The rules stipulate that you check for fighter support after battle. Thus, you can be over your fighter support during battle, should you lose a carrier. The rules state you may never violate your fleet supply. Thus, if you attacked the Naalu (enhanced by Telepathic Mind Weapon), you would immediately check for fleet supply. The rules state if you lose a ship, any ground forces upon that ship are immediately lost. Only in the instance of fighter support do you wait until the end of battle to check for support. In ground forces and fleet supply, you check immediately.

This may not be the INTENT of 52N6's ability (to kill Stasis Capsules). But rules-as-written, that is the power afforded to 52N6.

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Orc Conquest said:

 

1. You said, " ...it was never covered in the rules cause there has been (up til now) no precedent but I believe the only rule is any GF's on a hip that is destroyed are also destroyed." This is incorrect. A carrier could have ground forces on it. Then the owner of the carrier could participate in the political card, "Technology Buy back" or such. And thus a player could sell back his Stasis Capsules. According to you, the carrier with ground forces on it would continue to keep its cargo.

 

 

Actually, according to what Solitear was saying, the carrier would only "keep it's cargo" if that card was played in the middle of a space battle (which I'm pretty sure it can't be) and even then the "cargo" would only be "kept" until the end of the battle, at which point they would be destroyed if the Stasis Capsules tech is still gone.

Orc Conquest said:

 

 

If you don't check for ground force capacity during a battle, then your warsun in this instance could pick up the ground forces since you have capacity available. And no one I know plays that you check for ground force capacity AFTER a battle, you always check immediately.

 

 

I think that using the shorthand "GF support capacity" is taking this conversation a bit off track.  No one ever suggested that it should be possible for a GF to "swap ships" if the one he was originally on was destroyed in battle.  Each GF is assigned to a specific ship for transport, and if that ship is destroyed, all GF on board go with it - that is an explicit rule that was never in question.  The problem is, up until 52N6 it has never been possible for a ship's ability to carry GFs to be temporarily disabled without being destroyed in the process, that's the issue here.  The ship still exists, and the rules don't account for that possibility in explicit terms.

Because the question of "GF support" is not addressed by the rules, you can reasonably choose to interpret it either way - your way or Solitear's way.  The rules don't expressly allow or deny either option.  Barring official response from FFG, this is a conundrum that's ultimately up to each player group to decide how to handle on their own.  However, it seems easier and less finnicky to rule that GFs survive until the end of the battle, like FTs, than to say you have to go through all your ships with GF on board and remove the ones that are no longer supported, which is ultimately what swayed me to change my mind from my original position - if you have to make personal rulings to address holes like this, why not pick the ruling that keeps things moving most smoothly?

I suppose even that is a matter of personal taste, though.

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yea..I keep hunting the rules for that one sentence that will let it all fall together. :P     hopefully a faq soon...shouldn't take one of the designers more than five minutes to rule........wonder why the wait.

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Steve-O said:

 

 

The problem is, up until 52N6 it has never been possible for a ship's ability to carry GFs to be temporarily disabled without being destroyed in the process, that's the issue here.  The ship still exists, and the rules don't account for that possibility in explicit terms.

 

Except, this HAS been possible before. It started with Shattered Empire and the political cards that allow you to sell your technology. What happens if you have a cruiser with a ground force on it and then you sell back Stasis Capsules? Do you check for ground force capacity immediately? Or do your cruisers get to keep their ground forces?

I thought everyone had agreed 4 years ago when SE came out that you lose your ground forces. Now people are arguing that you can keep your ground forces.

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ryolacap said:

It says you can't use it in the battle.  Stasis capsules are not used in battle.  I think the assumption here would be a combat specific tech.

Except that Mark II Carriers ARE used in battle. Are you arguing that 52N6 cannot cancel the sustain damage of Mark II Carriers? And if 52N6 is able to cancel part of Mark II Carriers, it seems gamey and rules-lawyery to deny him the abilty to cancel ALL of Mark II Carriers.

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Orc Conquest said:

Steve-O said:

 

 

The problem is, up until 52N6 it has never been possible for a ship's ability to carry GFs to be temporarily disabled without being destroyed in the process, that's the issue here.  The ship still exists, and the rules don't account for that possibility in explicit terms.

 

Except, this HAS been possible before. It started with Shattered Empire and the political cards that allow you to sell your technology. What happens if you have a cruiser with a ground force on it and then you sell back Stasis Capsules? Do you check for ground force capacity immediately? Or do your cruisers get to keep their ground forces?

I thought everyone had agreed 4 years ago when SE came out that you lose your ground forces. Now people are arguing that you can keep your ground forces.

 

uhm..in what instance is a poitical card ever activated during a space battle?

 

My point is the Gf's will die as soon as the battle is over ...since the effect ends at the end of the battle the ability to transport them comes back and they survive :)          and just because a ship couldn't support troops for a long haul between planets doesn't mean that the troops couldn't survive for short periods of time like a space battle.         

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My point is: there are political cards that allow players to sell Stasis Capsules. What happens when a player sells Stasis Capsules back via "Technology Buy Back"? Are his ground forces upon cruisers and dreadnaughts immediately lost? According to you, they are not lost until the end of battle. And according to me, you check for ground force capacity immediatley: thus, the GF on the cruiser is lost immediately when you sell back Stasis Capsules.

I guess you and I still disagree on the issue of precedence. You are under the impression that the situation of a ship having a ground force but losing Stasis Capsules is "new" with the advent of 52N6--whereas I believe the situation has existed since Shattered Empire (and it was then that this issue was resolved).

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Orc Conquest said:

I guess you and I still disagree on the issue of precedence. You are under the impression that the situation of a ship having a ground force but losing Stasis Capsules is "new" with the advent of 52N6--whereas I believe the situation has existed since Shattered Empire (and it was then that this issue was resolved).

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have all the political cards memorized and my copy of the game is currently inaccessible), but when you use Tech Buy Back, the tech is gone.  If you want it back you have to repurchase it later.  That is not the same situation as a tech being "suspended" for a temporary period of time and then reinstated.

Also, assuming that TBB, as a political card, is unlikely to come into effect in the middle of a space battle, the GFs will in fact still be destroyed immediately, even by the honorable opposition's interpretation.

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My point is (and has been), you check for ground force capacity immediately. Like fleet supply, if you don't have enough ground force capacity, you lose your excess GF's. If you don't have enough fleet supply, you lose your excess ships.The only exception is fighter support. In the middle of combat you do not check for fighter support. At all other times, you check for fighter support (ground force capacity, fleet supply) immediately.

I don't see the logic in arguing that you check for ground force capacity immediately if: you no longer have Stasis Capsules because you sold it back but you don't check for ground force capacity immediately if you no longer have Stasis Capsules because 52N6 cancelled it.

Furthermore, I don't see the logic in arguing that Stasis Capsules cannot be canceled by 52N6 but that 52N6 can in fact cancel Mark II Carriers.

I raised the "Stasis Capsules being cancelled by 52N6" on the TI3wiki board a few days ago to get people's opinions. I think cancelling Stasis Capsules is abusive but it seems to be perfectly legal.

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Orc Conquest said:

My point is: there are political cards that allow players to sell Stasis Capsules. What happens when a player sells Stasis Capsules back via "Technology Buy Back"? Are his ground forces upon cruisers and dreadnaughts immediately lost? According to you, they are not lost until the end of battle. And according to me, you check for ground force capacity immediatley: thus, the GF on the cruiser is lost immediately when you sell back Stasis Capsules.

I guess you and I still disagree on the issue of precedence. You are under the impression that the situation of a ship having a ground force but losing Stasis Capsules is "new" with the advent of 52N6--whereas I believe the situation has existed since Shattered Empire (and it was then that this issue was resolved).

 

no. the ground forces immediately die..I guess I should say that a ground force must be supported by a planet or a ship while on the map. at anytime if I loka t a groundforce on the map with nowhere to be I destroy it.  ..immediately..I won't wait until a space battle then kill it at the end.....

 

however during a battle this is not a concern.  if the ship it is on is destroyed they die too...but where in the sequence would I check for ground force capacity?    its not part of the battle sequence...doesn't happen(if the errata it in, then ok) as soon as the fight is over then ok.

 

A space battle is a short thing.....if the sudden loss of stasis would kill an army of men that quickly then it should kill the crew of the ship too(I am imagining you are thinking the life support would not hold up......unless in your civilization you hold the army in stasis outside the ship to save space..then when stasis stops they all die in vacuum....:P

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Orc Conquest said:

My point is (and has been), you check for ground force capacity immediately. Like fleet supply, if you don't have enough ground force capacity, you lose your excess GF's. If you don't have enough fleet supply, you lose your excess ships.The only exception is fighter support. In the middle of combat you do not check for fighter support. At all other times, you check for fighter support (ground force capacity, fleet supply) immediately.

I don't see the logic in arguing that you check for ground force capacity immediately if: you no longer have Stasis Capsules because you sold it back but you don't check for ground force capacity immediately if you no longer have Stasis Capsules because 52N6 cancelled it.

Furthermore, I don't see the logic in arguing that Stasis Capsules cannot be canceled by 52N6 but that 52N6 can in fact cancel Mark II Carriers.

I raised the "Stasis Capsules being cancelled by 52N6" on the TI3wiki board a few days ago to get people's opinions. I think cancelling Stasis Capsules is abusive but it seems to be perfectly legal.

 

I disagree..you check for fleet supply before and after the battle too.    when have new ships ever entered in the middle of a battle? if i had cards that could I don't think fleet supply would apply until after the battle in that case(unless the card specifically told me to not violate fleet supply.

 

its like this. Game rounds represent at the shortest weeks or months and possibly years depending on your perspective(not written anywhere but consider the time and effort to carry out full scale invasions of planets/solar systems.)  in these cases fleet supply and whether or not an army can survive on a cruiser outside of stasis are important.....the space battles representing the five minutes of terror that follow the months of boredom are relatively short and the mundane things can be sorted out later...those ground forces will die if the stasis capsules are not restarted but they have some time and those enemy ships are a more immediate threat.  I will accept gracefully if I am proven wrong but I think this is how it will be errated...

 

I

 

 

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solitear said:

 

I disagree..you check for fleet supply before and after the battle too.    

 

You can disagree but you're still wrong. Page 21 of the rules states:

If, for any reason,
the number of ships in a system should exceed the
number of Command Counters in a player's Fleet
Supply, the owner of those ships must IMMEDIATELY
remove enough ships from the system (by placing
them back with his reinforcements) until the
number of ships is again in compliance with the
number of Command Counters in his Fleet
Supply area.

 

You keep confusing "fighter support" with ground force capacity and fleet supply. Only fighter support allows you to check at the beginning of battle and the end of battle. You check for fleet supply and ground force capacity immediately.

 

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I'm a bit curious about this. Where in the rulebook does it say you check ground force capacity immediately? To my knowledge it never does, which is the crux of the problem.

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Terpoma said:

 

I'm a bit curious about this. Where in the rulebook does it say you check ground force capacity immediately? To my knowledge it never does, which is the crux of the problem.

 

 

 

Page 28 from the rules:

A Carrier can never carry more than 6 units, so be
careful to keep track of how full your Carriers are.
Excess units on a Carrier must be IMMEDIATELY
destroyed (chosen by the Carrier’s owner).

Ask yourself: how could a carrier ever have "excess units"?

If you DON'T check for ground force capacity immediately, then you are allowed to do the following: sell Stasis Capsules via Technology Buy Back...but keep any ground forces that are on your dreadnaughts or cruisers already.

The rules state any ship that is lost also loses any ground forces upon it (thus, you check for ground force capacity immediately). Your ground forces are not allowed to be picked up by other ships which have ground force capacity. This is different than fighter support which the rules state does not get checked during battle. You check for ground force capacity and fleet supply immediately; you check for fighter support immediately except during battle--you check after the battle instead.

 

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 the rulebook does say to destroy the ground forces immediately so I have no answer to that.

However I consider that interpretation of the rules to be exploitive and I consider the other rebuttal (that it only applies to combat related techs) to be cumbersome and wonky in implementation..theres something simple and elegant about having it just not having an effect   

In my games the ground forces are clearly marked which ship they are on so no counting is necesary nor is there any confusion as to which ship the Ground force rides on so if it is destroyed the ground force leaves with it and no capacity  counting is ever done.  as of now the word immediately in the rulebook technically forces me to concede the point.  At the time that rule was written carrier capacity could not change mid battle and I believe the writers imagined the immediatly to happen during the game round.    I can no longer use the rulebook to back up my point so I will cease to make it ;)  

I will never play that way and i think errata will bring it closer to my point.  thank you for maintaining etiquette during this debate I am assuming that if FFG new how they would decide already they would have just dropped a quick errata within days...instead I think these questions have surprised them as much as us and they themselves are debating....just wanted to make my point clearly.

 

There are so many cards and variables in this game I doubt it is possible to create a new mechanic or card without being able to find a conflict or confusion with another card/mechanic :P   the complexity is why I lov e this game...each action is so simple but they add up to this whole complex symphony of game lay..ok off topic now.

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I think that killing GF's by cancelling Stasis Capsules (and the like) is abusive. It will be difficult to reword this with errata, I'm afraid.

Consider Mark II Carriers. This technology is used during combat (Sol's carriers get sustain damage). But the tech also increases the capacity of Sol's carriers. If it is ruled that Mark II Carriers cannot be affected by 52N6, then you have the dilemma that 52N6 is still able to cancel Non-Euclidean Shielding. Thus, 52N6 would be forbidden from cancelling Mark II Carriers (giving a bonus to 4 Sol carriers) but would still be allowed to cancel Non-Euclidean Shielding (which gives a bonus to 5 Letnev dreads, 2 warsuns and a flagship).

I don't see any easy, eloquent way out of this quagmire.

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Orc Conquest said:

 

solitear said:

 

I disagree..you check for fleet supply before and after the battle too.    

 

You can disagree but you're still wrong. Page 21 of the rules states:

If, for any reason,
the number of ships in a system should exceed the
number of Command Counters in a player's Fleet
Supply, the owner of those ships must IMMEDIATELY
remove enough ships from the system (by placing
them back with his reinforcements) until the
number of ships is again in compliance with the
number of Command Counters in his Fleet
Supply area.

 

You keep confusing "fighter support" with ground force capacity and fleet supply. Only fighter support allows you to check at the beginning of battle and the end of battle. You check for fleet supply and ground force capacity immediately.

 

 

 

 

I'm not confusing them I am using the fighter support rule as a precedant for the ground force fleet supply rule. There was no rule for ground forces and fleet supply during a battle(for that instant only) not having support since it could not physically happen while it could with fighters....by the way rule on page n29 of fighters also say remove the fighters in excess immediately...which is then followed up by a rule excluding space battles from this. My point is that they never considered the effect of ground forces losing their carrier without themselves also dieing when the carrier exploded.  how do the stasis capsule soldiers die?  do the stasis capsules just blink out of existence and take the groundforces with them?>

 

 

I see a bunch of disoriented soldiers wake up and find themselves stuck on a cramped stuffy cruiser for the duration of a battle...having served on submarines I can tell you the extra mouths to feed at chow will tick the crew off big time...so maybe they all get thrown out airlocks? :P  my point is that if overcrowding kills the ground forces then the crew probably dies too since it is much smaller than the army(I would think) except maybe for dreadnaughts. My thinking is that after a short battle the army is put back to sleep and the ship continues on its way.

 

obviously this merc has some good tricks up his sleeve and is good at finding ways to outsmart his oponents tech advantage..did you think he had some sort of super secret anti tech ray/field generator or something?  thats not the way the mercs seem to work. 

 

I conceded this point based on technicality of wording in one paragraph but AI still believe It will be errated closer to my point and wanted to clarify that I wasn't confused I was simply using cirting the fighter capacity thing as a reference point.   space battles are short...if one dude in a fighter craft(or are they bigger...maybe. can survive wihout landing/refueling then I doubt its enough time for an army to suffocate or starve or whatever...oh maybe stasis capsules shrink them down and they are stored in nooks and crannies in the hull and between equipment(like we do in subs) and when the stasis capsules fail they pop back to full size and are crushed in a disgusting mess...:P

 

my group wont accept a ruling unless it makes sense thematically or explicitly stated in the rules so.....

 

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Orc Conquest said:

I think that killing GF's by cancelling Stasis Capsules (and the like) is abusive. It will be difficult to reword this with errata, I'm afraid.

Consider Mark II Carriers. This technology is used during combat (Sol's carriers get sustain damage). But the tech also increases the capacity of Sol's carriers. If it is ruled that Mark II Carriers cannot be affected by 52N6, then you have the dilemma that 52N6 is still able to cancel Non-Euclidean Shielding. Thus, 52N6 would be forbidden from cancelling Mark II Carriers (giving a bonus to 4 Sol carriers) but would still be allowed to cancel Non-Euclidean Shielding (which gives a bonus to 5 Letnev dreads, 2 warsuns and a flagship).

I don't see any easy, eloquent way out of this quagmire.

 

errata is simple: fleet supply/ability to carry groundforces/fighter capacity are not relavent during a space battle. remove ground forces as carrying ships are destroyed.  there.....FFG can use that for free :P

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I've yet to see my fresh new Shards in play so I may eat my words but I don't see why the merc could not target Stasis Capsules nor do I see why it would be out of the spirit/intent of the rule to do so. Fluff-wise, targetting the Stasis Capsules of enemy invading forces before they get a chance to land is certainly an exciting, cinematic, high-drama and thematically appropriate mission to undertake during the Space Battle just prior to that Planetary Landing.

It's easier for me to interpret that Stasis Capsules are definitely "being used" all throughout the space battle as a prerequisite for the imminent planetary landing than it is for me to interpret that, given the options this talented merc suddenly opens up, he would for some reason completely neglect the impending invasion on his employer's domain.

Remember also that the merc is forgoing the chance to negate any other tech so you still benefit from your Hylar, Cybernitecs, what-have-you.

Again, I may change my tune when I find myself targeted by this and lose some stasis forces.

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The FAQ has ruled that 52N6's ability may not be used for racial technologies or Stasis Capsules.

Does that mean the ability COULD be used for War Sun? If yes, then when a player is attacked with a fleet including the War Sun, the War Sun simply can't participate in the space battle. Is that correct?

 

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