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TrooperShark99

Frodo is coming, what does everyone think ! interesting option ?

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Frodo Baggins
7 threat
2 willpower
1 attack power
2 defense power
2 health

Hero / Hobbit

Response : After Frodo Baggins takes damage, cancel all damage taken and increase your Threat by the amount of damage that was inflicted. Limit once per phase.

 

Interesting especially with Spirits threat reduction abilities.

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I guess good as a continous defender against weaker foes, but  tough with the threat increase. Gandalf and The Galadhrim's Greeting will be working overtime with this one. Although I don't know what else is on that pack(The Carrock, right?) he doesn't really jump out at me. Thank you for the preview, though.

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I can see how he will fit in. You can essentially keep him alive, even against Hill Trolls, Ufthak etc., as long as you have a way of reducing threat again. He's like a cannon fodder ally who just won't die.

And 7 threat is the joint-lowest we've seen from a hero so far, probably until Sam Gamgee shows up.

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 I think he's quite amazing as Spirit can easily reduce the total threat. And he's quite cheap too. Far better than Eleanor for the same price in my opinion.

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How are you going to keep him alive against a Hill Troll? He can't heal until he takes damage. Only works if you put a Citadel Plate on him. And if you are going to heal all 6 damage that the Troll dishes out, you might as well block him with someone else and earn less threat.

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Titan said:

How are you going to keep him alive against a Hill Troll? He can't heal until he takes damage. Only works if you put a Citadel Plate on him. And if you are going to heal all 6 damage that the Troll dishes out, you might as well block him with someone else and earn less threat.

Another card for the 'after = when?' debate, probably. But the way I interpret his ability is that he can choose to cancel any amount of damage coming his way by transforming it into Threat. This is a Response which can be immediately activated upon receiving the damage, i.e. before he dies. He would be utter rubbish otherwise, as any damage higher than 1 would kill him outright.

 

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I really like that they kept the formula for counting Threat Level = Will + Attack + Defense + Hit Points.

Hope they won't change that as Bilbo's preview suggested. His threat seemed FAR off. (To me.)

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 If the actual wording is that he "cancels" damage, then it can´t be after the fact right? Then it would say "heal", and would of course be a lot less useful with his low HP.

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Interesting argument. He does say cancel as opposed to heal. But it sounds as though he has to wait to be damaged to cancel said damage. As a response, would it not need to be triggered by suffering the damage? I don't think you can survive if you take damage up to or beyond your hit points. But as was said, clarification will probably be needed.

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The art of this card is wonderful.

Titan@ : Frodo's abilitie is not to heal the damage but to cancel the damage so this makes him the best defender for spirit sphere against the troll.Now i can feel safe from the troll if the grey wizard has a more important task in Meaddle-Earth and he is not in my hand.

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servant of the secret fire said:

The art of this card is wonderful.

Titan@ : Frodo's abilitie is not to heal the damage but to cancel the damage so this makes him the best defender for spirit sphere against the troll.Now i can feel safe from the troll if the grey wizard has a more important task in Meaddle-Earth and he is not in my hand.


 

I get the different keyword. But then it is the after/when argument all over again. Cancel when I see it coming or after I've received it? The wording of the spanish card then leaves that open to interpretation. If it is before received, then yes, quite useful.

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 When looking at the rules(Hit points and damage on pg20) it says "For each point of damage dealt to a character or enemy, one damage token is placed(...)". That might mean he gets incoming damage, but before that damage is actually translated to tokens, it´s canceled. At least then it works the way I hope it´s supposed to.happy.gif

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Titan said:

servant of the secret fire said:

 

The art of this card is wonderful.

Titan@ : Frodo's abilitie is not to heal the damage but to cancel the damage so this makes him the best defender for spirit sphere against the troll.Now i can feel safe from the troll if the grey wizard has a more important task in Meaddle-Earth and he is not in my hand.

 


 

 

I get the different keyword. But then it is the after/when argument all over again. Cancel when I see it coming or after I've received it? The wording of the spanish card then leaves that open to interpretation. If it is before received, then yes, quite useful.

 

Doesn't matter. The key word is cancel, so it is simply as if the damage never existed. If that damage is enough to kill frodo, you simply cancel it and take threat instead. Thats' different to heal as you can only heal damage after it has been applied, if in applying the damage you die, you don't get the opportunity to heal.

 

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pumpkin said:

Titan said:

 

servant of the secret fire said:

 

The art of this card is wonderful.

Titan@ : Frodo's abilitie is not to heal the damage but to cancel the damage so this makes him the best defender for spirit sphere against the troll.Now i can feel safe from the troll if the grey wizard has a more important task in Meaddle-Earth and he is not in my hand.

 


 

 

I get the different keyword. But then it is the after/when argument all over again. Cancel when I see it coming or after I've received it? The wording of the spanish card then leaves that open to interpretation. If it is before received, then yes, quite useful.

 

 

 

Doesn't matter. The key word is cancel, so it is simply as if the damage never existed. If that damage is enough to kill frodo, you simply cancel it and take threat instead. Thats' different to heal as you can only heal damage after it has been applied, if in applying the damage you die, you don't get the opportunity to heal.

 

 

Yeah, I agree with Pumpkin. He defends and would take X damage. You can take that damage maybe if it were only 1 and he'd have 1 life left and no increase to threat dial, or if it were 2+ wounds you can ignore those wounds and increase your threat dial by that much. Either way, I see it as if wounds would be applied to him, you can ignore those wounds by increasing your threat dial.

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Then quite frankly, the wording on the card stinks. How about "if Frodo would take damage" as opposed to "after Frodo takes damage"? It's difficult for me to believe that proffesional game designers make such elementary mistakes. I looked at other spanish heal cards and they do use a different keyword than cancel, so I must accept what others are saying. Good card, terrible wording.

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Yeah, I'm sure the wording could be better, but the mechanic seems fine to me. I'm sure he'll be helpful in a lot of situations to avoid huge wounds for another hero by defending with him or going undefended to use ready characters for combining for an attack or whatever. It may be worth it to increase your Threat dial in those situations, especially if you have that card in your hand that can reduce your Threat dial.

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It will most likely be like game of thrones where the card goes in to a moribund state before it dies and goes away. Within that window you cancel the damage using Frodo's ability, so the damage no longer exists and you increase your threat equal to the amount of damage canceled. Pretty much makes Frodo one of the best defenders in the game. 

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 I guess it really depends on the way you see it - that's the problem with language and its nuances and double-entendres...

you could use "after" in the sense of "when", because first you receive the damage and then, immediately and subsequently, you cancel the damage...

"when" can be used in the same sense - whenever Frodo receives damage, afterwards cancel it etc. ...

 

what is important for a card game, is to use a coherent and unified terminology - not to many erratas - and to avoid redundancies and therefore too long card texts (as was the case in the beautiful and still best ccg in the galaxy MECCG...)

 

anywhooooooo, GREAT card, reminds me of LOTR CCG by Decipher where you could "avoid" the damage by assigning burdens :) CAAAAN't wait for the expansions...

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I don't know what makes it so obvious. By their nature (and the rulebook definition) a response is something that is triggered by an occurrence and happens immediately after said occurrence. The keyword cancel would seem to contradict this, as it suggests that something is being pre-empted before it happens. I guess it is as Toqtamish said, the character is in a moribund state and can still be saved. He takes the wounds and then they are canceled. Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, but it is what it is.

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If we look at other cards with cancel effects, I see the functioning as obvious as well.

When you draw a shadow card, "The active player flips that enemy’s shadow card faceup and resolves any shadow effect that card might have."  Suppose you draw Hummhorns, " deal 1 damage to each character the defending player controls. (2 damage instead if this attack is undefended."  In response you play Hasty Stroke, "Response: Cancel a shadow effect just triggered during combat."

Is the damage from the Shadow card applied?  The rules state that their is no time between revealing the shadow card and resolving it.  Do you only resolve Hasty Stroke after applying the damage?  Of course not.  I think everyone agrees that that by using the word "cancel" Hasty stroke keeps the card from ever resolving, even though the game has no  resolution phase for shadow effect. Frodo works the same way, he keeps damage from being dealt.  I do hope that the language on the English card will help clarify this, since so many people find it unclear. 

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Titan said:

I don't know what makes it so obvious. By their nature (and the rulebook definition) a response is something that is triggered by an occurrence and happens immediately after said occurrence. The keyword cancel would seem to contradict this, as it suggests that something is being pre-empted before it happens. I guess it is as Toqtamish said, the character is in a moribund state and can still be saved. He takes the wounds and then they are canceled. Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, but it is what it is.

 

Well how many times did the Frodo's companions think he was gone for?  happy.gif Got stabbed by the Cave Troll with the spear (or so they thought) but had the Mithril shirt on to save him. Then he got stabbed by the Nazgul sword and nearly died and then he got bitten by the spider and thought dead by Sam but was just paralyzed. So perhaps it's like he's thought to be a goner by taking the wounds but can still be saved by not giving the wounds and increasing the Threat. Being Frodo and close to death many times, it seems like a natural ability for him.

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Bohemond said:

If we look at other cards with cancel effects, I see the functioning as obvious as well.

When you draw a shadow card, "The active player flips that enemy’s shadow card faceup and resolves any shadow effect that card might have."  Suppose you draw Hummhorns, " deal 1 damage to each character the defending player controls. (2 damage instead if this attack is undefended."  In response you play Hasty Stroke, "Response: Cancel a shadow effect just triggered during combat."

Is the damage from the Shadow card applied?  The rules state that their is no time between revealing the shadow card and resolving it.  Do you only resolve Hasty Stroke after applying the damage?  Of course not.  I think everyone agrees that that by using the word "cancel" Hasty stroke keeps the card from ever resolving, even though the game has no  resolution phase for shadow effect. Frodo works the same way, he keeps damage from being dealt.  I do hope that the language on the English card will help clarify this, since so many people find it unclear. 


 

But that's just it, Hasty Stroke is clearly worded to just cancel an effect before it is applied. Frodo is nowhere as clear because of the "after he takes damage" part. Not arguing about the end result, it's become clear to me the designers intended him to work as you say he does. Just inconsistently worded, that's all. 

And Hahma, yes, good analogy. One thing is obvious, the designers have taken pains to tailor effects to the character's traits.

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