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Nephilm

So, how do power fists work?

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The weapons table says they (and chainfists) double the SB that gets added to damage, and their text description says that power fists increase the wielder's unnatural strength multiplier by one.

Now, applying both of those would mean that on a marine with 50ish strength a hit would do 2d10+34 damage per hit, before taking into account any other bonuses from talents and weapon quality.

Breakdown:

[2d10 + ((5*3)+2)*2]

Normal SB 5 from 50~ strength, tripled from Unnatural Strength x(2+1), plus 2 from armour (+20), all that doubled due to powerfist description.

And well, this seems rather excessive. While I can totally see it as something that'd wreck a tank, it renders other melee weapons irrelevant as damage dealers.

Of course, you could also assume that the "doubles strength" is an extension of the "increases unnatural strength by 1" description in the text, but going by the newest Living Errata that'd mean that Thunder Hammers are better than Power Fists in every way, since they cost the same, yet do more damage and add the perma-stun concussion ability in addition to being more versatile (as they allow the use of the hand outside of combat).

So, uh... thoughts?

 

 

 

 

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HAIL BROTHER NEPHILM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........ACTUALLY YOU JUST CHANGE THE UNNATURAL STR TO x3 INSTEAD OF MULTIPLIYNG THE DAMAGE X 2, SO AS YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR EXAMPLE A BATTLE BROTHER WITH STR 50 WILL ONLY GET A +15 STR DMG + POWER FIST BONUS, WITHOUT MULTIPLYING IT AGAIN x 2............MAY THE RUSS AN THE ALLFATHER GUIDE YOU BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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LORD SHARICK said:

HAIL BROTHER NEPHILM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........ACTUALLY YOU JUST CHANGE THE UNNATURAL STR TO x3 INSTEAD OF MULTIPLIYNG THE DAMAGE X 2, SO AS YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR EXAMPLE A BATTLE BROTHER WITH STR 50 WILL ONLY GET A +15 STR DMG + POWER FIST BONUS, WITHOUT MULTIPLYING IT AGAIN x 2............MAY THE RUSS AN THE ALLFATHER GUIDE YOU BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Then there would be no reason to take a power fist over a thunder hammer ever?

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Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

H.B.M.C. likes this

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herichimo said:

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

 

When that makes a difference betwen survive or roll a new character, you take this kind of things into consideration.

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herichimo said:

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

It's not about "what is better," but about the differences that'd lead me to take something instead of another. What we have here is a case of something that's mechanically better than something else for the same cost, no drawbacks, same gimmick. Of course it's ultimately about what you find aesthetically more pleasing, which would lead you for instance to take a relic blade with your Black Templar because **** yeah you want to be a master swordsman with a huge sword, but one can't help but feel cheated out when what you want to do has no mechanical incentives to it, however minor they might be.

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Nephilm said:

herichimo said:

 

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

 

 

It's not about "what is better," but about the differences that'd lead me to take something instead of another. What we have here is a case of something that's mechanically better than something else for the same cost, no drawbacks, same gimmick. Of course it's ultimately about what you find aesthetically more pleasing, which would lead you for instance to take a relic blade with your Black Templar because **** yeah you want to be a master swordsman with a huge sword, but one can't help but feel cheated out when what you want to do has no mechanical incentives to it, however minor they might be.

Don't worry, the Thunder Hammer is insanely overpowered, and any Space Marine with half a brain would take it over any of the other melee weapons offered.  I'm really hoping that it gets rebalanced soon.  The damage and increase of SB is nasty enough, but the Concussive quality just takes it way over the top.  About the only melee weapon that is roughly on par would be a Force weapon wielded by a Librarian, especially one of high rank (now that's really overpowered).

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Nephilm said:

herichimo said:

 

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

 

 

It's not about "what is better," but about the differences that'd lead me to take something instead of another. What we have here is a case of something that's mechanically better than something else for the same cost, no drawbacks, same gimmick. Of course it's ultimately about what you find aesthetically more pleasing, which would lead you for instance to take a relic blade with your Black Templar because **** yeah you want to be a master swordsman with a huge sword, but one can't help but feel cheated out when what you want to do has no mechanical incentives to it, however minor they might be.

This is Min/Maxing. Figuring out what can do the most damage from whats available and always going with that. Same thing tabletop players do. Same thing that most true role-players frown upon, because when you do this you aren't playing a role. You are playing statistics. Role-playing is coming up with a preference for your character (and/or his chapter or group's preference), who will then prefer to use that preference. Your space marine knows he's strong he doesn't know his strength number though. He knows a powerfist and thunderhammer both do a lot of damage, he doesn't know the thunderhammer does exactly 5 more damage.

But if you think its alrighty to play math instead of play roles, well I can't stop you. I'm just suggesting doing it the other way may be more fun and entertaining. You've had your rebuttle to my response to your question. This is my rebuttle to yours, our debate is closed. Think about what I said or close your mind and don't. Either way, any responses to me will be wasted, I'm done with this topic.

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 No, no, no... you're missing my point. What I'm calling for is that weapons ought to be different. Have their niche. For instance, power swords are great all rounders and defensive weapons, lightning claws are good for very skilled melee specialists, relic blades are swords that eat other swords... that kind of thing. They have their own mechanics, benefits and drawbacks, gimmicks.

What I'm seeing here is that the power fist and the thunder hammer fill the same kind of role, in roughly the same kind of manner, yet one is just plain better than the other, no drawbacks in terms of cost or availability or anything really. And I'm thinking this exactly because I'm factoring in the roleplaying - if my current Blood Angel Assault Marine has no strong feelings about either, then he would obviously go for the thunder hammer because he knows it has a concussive effect, and is equally easy to use and requisition. It's not about damage, but what they bring to the table.

If I were doing a Salamander I'd take the hammer no questions asked. If I were doing a Crimson Fist I'd take the power fist. If I were doing my Black Templar I'd go with swords until I could be entrusted with a Relic Blade. But in a situation in which I'm neutral about things, I'm left wondering what reason for existing on has over the other.

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Is a thunder Hammer a 2 Handed weapon? Most of the models when equiped with one seem to use it with 2 hands. I ask because then the powerfist is better if you want another hand free maybe?

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Soloman said:

Is a thunder Hammer a 2 Handed weapon? Most of the models when equiped with one seem to use it with 2 hands. I ask because then the powerfist is better if you want another hand free maybe?

Most people that I've seen talk about the TH agree that it should be 2-handed, at the least, but by the book it only requires 1 hand.  It even explicitly suggests using the TH with a Storm Shield, which is an extremely deadly combination.  The only 2-hander, off the top of my head, is the Force Staff.

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Soloman said:

Is a thunder Hammer a 2 Handed weapon? Most of the models when equiped with one seem to use it with 2 hands. I ask because then the powerfist is better if you want another hand free maybe?

It should be. Certainly if you play DOW then it's a two handed weapon. Terminators carry it one handed, but those are Terminators. Officially at the moment though you can carry it one handed in regular power armour. If it ever becomes an issue I suspect our group will house rule Terminator Armour only for the one hand.

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Which sounds about right.

In a group, I was the GM, and we ruled that TH had to be 2-handed, except if your armor could handle it especially (you could pay it with a special Elite advance, Termie Armor, or whatever-I-felt-was-right).

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Nephilm said:

So, uh... thoughts?

 

Errr... yeah. I think you're doing the same thing twice, aren't you? You don't get extra strength damage because you do what the table says *and* what the text says. Firstly, multipliers add rather than multiply. So doubling Str bonus just adds one to the unnatural strength modifier, giving you Marine a multiplier of three with the weapon. 

Yes: This makes them worse than Thunderhammers. As others have said: Any GM worth their dicebag will insist that Thunderhammers be used in two hands when not in terminator armour, because that's in line with canon. Though the Thunderhammer is still indeed broken, and you might want to house-rule nerf it.

Likewise, it's best to house-rule the powerfist's powerfield. As it's unwieldy it can't parry, so the powerfield is useless. Instead, consider giving it a special quality whereby anything that *parries* it has a 25% of getting broken by its powerfield.

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Nephilm said:

So, uh... thoughts?

 

Errr... yeah. I think you're doing the same thing twice, aren't you? You don't get extra strength damage because you do what the table says *and* what the text says. Firstly, multipliers add rather than multiply. So doubling Str bonus just adds one to the unnatural strength modifier, giving you Marine a multiplier of three with the weapon. 

Yes: This makes them worse than Thunderhammers. As others have said: Any GM worth their dicebag will insist that Thunderhammers be used in two hands when not in terminator armour, because that's in line with canon. Though the Thunderhammer is still indeed broken, and you might want to house-rule nerf it.

Likewise, it's best to house-rule the powerfist's powerfield. As it's unwieldy it can't parry, so the powerfield is useless. Instead, consider giving it a special quality whereby anything that *parries* it has a 25% of getting broken by its powerfield.

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Siranui said:

Yes: This makes them worse than Thunderhammers. As others have said: Any GM worth their dicebag will insist that Thunderhammers be used in two hands when not in terminator armour, because that's in line with canon. Though the Thunderhammer is still indeed broken, and you might want to house-rule nerf it.

Bear in mind that the Thunder Hammer has always been better than a power fist - back in 2nd edition, the Thunder Hammer auto-wounded everything it it, and auto-penetrated any vehicle (though it could only be used by models in Terminator Armour, as the shockwave of impact would knock over anyone in less sturdy armour), while from 3rd edition onwards, it's been a Power Fist with an additional special rule to represent the shockwave it produces.

The Thunder Hammer is traditionally superior to the Power Fist. I don't see anything wrong with that continuing to be the case.

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 I see nothing in that being a problem so long as the thunder-hammer is used in the conventional manner (two hands in power amrour, one with termie suits) rather than the one stated in the rules, and so long as it's not game-breaking. Sadly, the rules both allow use of it by a marine in scout armour in one hand, and are really broken.

The TH can knock literally anything on its ass with no save (because I've not seen many things with a SB of over 30!) and invariably stun-locks everything, too. With multiple attacks the stun becomes a statistical near-certainty.

CLANG! Master-quality enemy? No problem. I'll just keep hitting it so it can't do anything and lays on the floor stunned while you all just stab it some more.

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Siranui said:

 I see nothing in that being a problem so long as the thunder-hammer is used in the conventional manner (two hands in power amrour, one with termie suits) rather than the one stated in the rules, and so long as it's not game-breaking. Sadly, the rules both allow use of it by a marine in scout armour in one hand, and are really broken.

The "conventional manner" isn't so conventional as you might think. The Thunder Hammer isn't specifically a two-handed weapon for non-Terminators in the wargame either, unlike the Relic Blade.

Siranui said:

The TH can knock literally anything on its ass with no save (because I've not seen many things with a SB of over 30!) and invariably stun-locks everything, too. With multiple attacks the stun becomes a statistical near-certainty.

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Siranui said:

 

 I see nothing in that being a problem so long as the thunder-hammer is used in the conventional manner (two hands in power amrour, one with termie suits) rather than the one stated in the rules, and so long as it's not game-breaking. Sadly, the rules both allow use of it by a marine in scout armour in one hand, and are really broken.

 

The "conventional manner" isn't so conventional as you might think. The Thunder Hammer isn't specifically a two-handed weapon for non-Terminators in the wargame either, unlike the Relic Blade.

Siranui said:

The TH can knock literally anything on its ass with no save (because I've not seen many things with a SB of over 30!) and invariably stun-locks everything, too. With multiple attacks the stun becomes a statistical near-certainty.

 

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

Making the TH two-handed when not in terminator armour seems like a good compromise, and maybe modifying the stunlock knocking down rules a bit.

The talent you're thinking of is Iron Jaw, btw.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

The "conventional manner" isn't so conventional as you might think. The Thunder Hammer isn't specifically a two-handed weapon for non-Terminators in the wargame either, unlike the Relic Blade.

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

Surely we don't need to argue semantics, given how utterly crazy it is compared to the power-fist (which has the same points cost) and even the chainfist (which is a pure termie weapon AND costs more Req!)? The TH is OP as RAW for its Req. That much is obvious.

The Stun effect isn't always great against masters, but is pretty much an 'I win' against everything else. And the knockdown is just ridiculous, given that it's automatic, with no consideration for size or anything else bar having a strength bonus that's all but unobtainable. It's a SECOND 'I win' against mobility-based foes using hit-and-run, and a nice bonus against everything else, on top of having great damage. In short -per RAW- it's really a no-brainer choice. That's bad for the game.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

 

You mean Iron Jaw, not True Grit.

 

Alex

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ak-73 said:

N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

 

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

 

 

 

You mean Iron Jaw, not True Grit.

 

Alex

Yeah, I know - foolish mistake, but my brain is tired from a lot of writing and background research over the past few weeks...

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

ak-73 said:

 

N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

 

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

 

 

 

You mean Iron Jaw, not True Grit.

 

Alex

 

 

Yeah, I know - foolish mistake, but my brain is tired from a lot of writing and background research over the past few weeks...

 

Yeah too prolonged periods of extensive work can do that. If one can have two or three days off, the quality upon return is much better in general.

 

Alex

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 I'd like to say something about this discussion. Master of Blades for Lightning claws/Thunder Hammer suddenly becomes more than overpowered...

2 lightning claws: 45 requisition, two weapons one-handed.

2 Thunder Hammers: 60 requisition, plus quite impossible to use...

Frankly, I can see an assault marine making kebab out of a Hive Tyrant in two or three turns, probably burning fate to survive the hits he can't dodge/absorb. And rulewise is quite right to do the thing. Yes, a solution would be not to award that combat distinction for Power weapons... but if the player earns it and never uses a chain weapon, there is little room for improvisation in there.

 

As for the TH Vs Power Fist, in the errata the differences are, essentially, damage and the concussive capacity the TH has. TH is 2d10+5E, while the Power Fist is 2d10+SB, both plus at least twice the SB thanks to the unnatural characteristic all Space Marines start with. I see the power fist losing here all the time, frankly: with low SB (almost all SM start with SB of 4, some with 5), the Thunder Hammer is better all the time. Let's assume the top SB is 7, plus gear: the melee bonus is [(7x2)+2] = 16

TH: damage is 2d10+5+16 = 2d10+21

PF: damage is 2d10+23 (since the strength bonus from the armor goes last).

My solution to this issue would be simple: the target, after receiving the thunder hammer's hit, flies backwards a number of meters equal to SB of the attacker minus TB of the defender, minimun 2 meters. That way, a marine can hit any given target only once per turn, twice at most, losing extra actions from the Master of Blades exploit.

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Argus Van Het said:

 I'd like to say something about this discussion. Master of Blades for Lightning claws/Thunder Hammer suddenly becomes more than overpowered...

2 lightning claws: 45 requisition, two weapons one-handed.

2 Thunder Hammers: 60 requisition, plus quite impossible to use...

Frankly, I can see an assault marine making kebab out of a Hive Tyrant in two or three turns, probably burning fate to survive the hits he can't dodge/absorb. And rulewise is quite right to do the thing. Yes, a solution would be not to award that combat distinction for Power weapons... but if the player earns it and never uses a chain weapon, there is little room for improvisation in there.

 

As for the TH Vs Power Fist, in the errata the differences are, essentially, damage and the concussive capacity the TH has. TH is 2d10+5E, while the Power Fist is 2d10+SB, both plus at least twice the SB thanks to the unnatural characteristic all Space Marines start with. I see the power fist losing here all the time, frankly: with low SB (almost all SM start with SB of 4, some with 5), the Thunder Hammer is better all the time. Let's assume the top SB is 7, plus gear: the melee bonus is [(7x2)+2] = 16

TH: damage is 2d10+5+16 = 2d10+21

PF: damage is 2d10+23 (since the strength bonus from the armor goes last).

My solution to this issue would be simple: the target, after receiving the thunder hammer's hit, flies backwards a number of meters equal to SB of the attacker minus TB of the defender, minimun 2 meters. That way, a marine can hit any given target only once per turn, twice at most, losing extra actions from the Master of Blades exploit.

Blademaster is nice, but it depends on how you take it to be used.  I use it where a "miss" that you can reroll is when you fail your attack roll; an opponent Dodging doesn't let you swing again.  I can see how the Talent can be used that way, and I'm sure a lot of people use that form of it.  For me, being able to keep swinging every round is a bit much.

The TH, as is, is so amazing because of three things.  In descending order of importance:

1.  Concussive is just a crazily powerful trait

2.  It has fantastic damage

3.  It can be used with one hand

I'm not so sure about your math.  Both the PF and TH double the Strength Bonus of the user.  By the rules, that means the Space Marine's Unnatural Strength (x2 Strength Bonus) is increased to x3 before adding the bonus from Power Armor.  Assuming a Strength Bonus of 4, that comes out to:

TH: 2d10 + 5 + 12 + 2 = 2d10 + 19 E

PF: 2d10 + 12 + 2 = 2d10 + 14 E

The TH has the same Requisition, is lighter, doesn't interfere with manual dexterity, does more damage, and has the same Special Traits as the PF + the all-important Concussive ability.  The upgraded TH in the errata even has the same Pen.

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