Cat of the Canals vs Pyat Pree

[Gualdo 0]

 Can Pyat Pree "choose and kill" Cat as a claim replace? I think not, but since lots of players says Yes maybe i'm wrong ;-) Waiting your opinion.

[FATMOUSE 0]

It's yes 

Really though, Pree's ability is claim replacement and Cat O' Canals isn't immune to claim effects and other non-card effects.  Pree isn't killing her, the claim effect is.  Pree just happens to change it.

[Gualdo 0]

 Pyat Pree my first enemy :-)

Thx for the quick reply.

[ktom 598]

Gualdo said:

Can Pyat Pree "choose and kill" Cat as a claim replace?

As Fatmouse explains, this is the thinking that needs to be changed. Pyat Pree does not "choose and kill" anyone. Pyat Pree changes how the claim effect is resolved and the claim effect does the actual choosing and killing.

[Gualdo 0]

 Thx Ktom... in agotcards now the card "Cat of the canals" is the one most commented... I think there will be users that soon will ask you about "Cat of the Canals" and OLD "Moment of glory" ...it is hard to stark players like me to accept tha "something" can kill her :-)

 

 

[Ratatoskr 34]

As Gualdo already heralded, there's kind of an unsresolved issue over at agotcards.com regarding Cat and ITE Moment of Glory, and beacuse the whole thing originated from the Pyat Pree question, I thought I'd just tack it on here.

First off, I'd like to apologize for bothering y'all with an issue that is highly academic, because one of the cards involved isn't even part of the current card pool, but I'd really like to understand how this game works, and the discussion over at agotcards has me on the verge of madness.

Moment of Glory said:

Challenges: Choose an attacking or defending War character. Until the end of the challenge, that character gets +3 STR. After the challenge resolves, choose and kill another participating character with lower STR, if able.

The card has an immediate effect (choose character, boost STR) that is a nomal triggered effect and can be treated as such. On top of that, the card creates a lasting effect that will be resolved at a later time (kill another character after challenge resolution). Now, my understanding is that a character with immunity to triggered effects, like KL Joff, could still be killed by the kill effect of MoG, because that effect is not a triggered effect but a lasting effect. So far, so good. It is still a card effect, though, so IMHO Cat would be immune to Moment of Glory.

Some of the good people over at agotcards, though, are adamant that the kill effect of MoG is not a card effect but a game mechanic, and that Cat would be vulnerable to it (I hope I'm reproducing their position correctly here). I OTOH don't understand how it would not be a card effect.

For the record, I fully understand and agree with the reasoning on Pyat Pree. He kills Cat dead, no doubt about it.

So, please, good spirits of the Rules board, either confirm that I'm right or explain to me, (in easy terms, please, because I can be a bit thick) where I'm wrong.

Thanks a lot for your time.

[ktom 598]

Ratatoskr said:

Now, my understanding is that a character with immunity to triggered effects, like KL Joff, could still be killed by the kill effect of MoG, because that effect is not a triggered effect but a lasting effect.

This is a very good "short answer" explanation of how Moment of Glory works. When it first came out, there was a lot of discussion around this very thing and how the "delayed kill" part of the effect wasn't a triggered effect (it happened at the end of the challenge whether you want it to or not) or an event effect (the event is long-gone by that point and not part of the "delayed kill's" initiation anyway), so immunity to events/triggered effects wasn't going to help. You would need the character to be "immune to lasting effects with a separate, delayed point of initiation." Something that clearly doesn't exist.

Ratatoskr said:

It is still a card effect, though, ... Some of the good people over at agotcards, though, are adamant that the kill effect of MoG is not a card effect but a game mechanic

Hmm. Well, I'd say that a ""game mechanic" is something that the rules create as part of the basic framework of the game, making the game what it is. Challenges are a game mechanic. Duping unique cards is a game mechanic. Having a separate discard and dead pile is a game mechanic. All framework events are game mechanics. On the other hand, "card effects" are anything that is present in the current game or situation because someone played a card to make it happen. "Does not kneel to attack or defend" is a card effect. Duping Drogon with the QoD-Black Hatchling is a card effect. Sending Forever Burning to the dead pile instead of the discard pile is a card effect. Perhaps most telling is that something that modified a framework event (like Pyat Pree changing the way claim resolves or the Kings of Summer agenda modifying the number of cards you draw during the Draw phase) is still a card effect.

It is also important to remember that something can act as both a card effect and a game mechanic, or a card effect can change the way game effects are used within a game. For example, all the Epic Battle events use card effects to create an additional phase - which then proceeds through certain game mechanics of timing, challenges, etc.

 

But when you look at the basic definitions - that "game mechanics" are defined and created by the rules but "card effects" have their origins and are applicable only because a card has been played - the MoG "delayed kill" would still be considered a card effect. The lasting effect with a delayed point of initiation is only part of the game because a card, not the game rules, say it is. It may function as a game mechanic in its initiation (although I personally wouldn't say that in this example; just because something happens "at the end of the challenge" does not make it become part of the game's defined, required mechanics during the "end of challenge" framework window), but it is still a card effect.

Essentially, if someone says "it's a game mechanic," they should be able to point to the place in the rules of the game that define it - and that definition should not be based on "when a card says X."

 

Now, people will be tempted to look at this and say "well, then pretty much everything is a card effect and Cat is pretty much immune to everything, isn't she?" And while pretty much everything is a card effect, you have to remember that the scope of immunity will only protect her from things that try to affect her directly. For example, if a card effect gave an attacker +3 STR, you wouldn't sat Cat is immune to the addition STR when she defends. So while Pyat Pree's claim replacement is a card effect, it is a card effect that works directly on claim. Cat cannot be protected from a card effect that modifies something else - only something that tries to modify her. So don't take this explanation of what constitutes a card effect too far when looking at Cat.

[Ratatoskr 34]

Thank you very, VERY much for this very detailed answer. I think I understand all you say (at least I hope I do), and I agree with everything.

It is, however, of paramount importance for my mental health that I get closure on this, in terms as unambiguous as humanely possible.

Can you confirm that, to the best of your knowledge, the following is correct:

The Kill effect of MoG is a card effect at the time at which it resolves.

Cat o' the Canals is immune to opponent's card effects.

Therefore, Cat o' the Canals is immune to the Kill effect of MoG and cannot be chosen as its target, provided that MoG was played by an opponent of the player controlling Cat o' the Canals.

Please say yes. Please.

 

[Gualdo 0]

 I'm with you Ratatoskr... this game is getting us crazy :-)

[ktom 598]

Ratatoskr said:

The Kill effect of MoG is a card effect at the time at which it resolves.

This is the only part that you really need confirmed. The rest follows completely from the identification of MoG's delayed kill as a card effect.

And, as the detailed answer above says, if it came from a card, it is a card effect. So, yes. The delayed kill on MoG is considered a "card effect." As such, Cat is immune to it if an opponent played the card in question.

[Ratatoskr 34]

ktom said:

 

And, as the detailed answer above says, if it came from a card, it is a card effect. So, yes. The delayed kill on MoG is considered a "card effect." As such, Cat is immune to it if an opponent played the card in question.

~Yes! I win! I WIN! In your face, french guy!

[Saturnine 47]

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

 

 And, as the detailed answer above says, if it came from a card, it is a card effect. So, yes. The delayed kill on MoG is considered a "card effect." As such, Cat is immune to it if an opponent played the card in question.

 

 

~Yes! I win! I WIN! In your face, french guy!

You gonna write that as a message to Julien?

[Gualdo 0]

 European War :-)

[Saturnine 47]

Gualdo said:

 European War :-)

Just the usual animosity between Germany and France

[Ratatoskr 34]

Saturnine said:

Gualdo said:

 

 European War :-)

 

 

Just the usual animosity between Germany and France

~I just hope he doesn't demand satisfaction and challenges me to settle this over OCTGN...I'd be dead meat...

[Saturnine 47]

Ratatoskr said:

~I just hope he doesn't demand satisfaction and challenges me to settle this over OCTGN...I'd be dead meat...

Just be sure to play Cat o' the Canals

 

We also have a score to settle (seeing as we didn't get to settle anything with my stupid OCTGN crashing) -- I'll need to get my OCTGN up-to-date first, though.

[Ratatoskr 34]

Saturnine said:

We also have a score to settle (seeing as we didn't get to settle anything with my stupid OCTGN crashing) -- I'll need to get my OCTGN up-to-date first, though.

PM sent.

[thorin1981 0]

Il Cat of the Canals immune to an opponent's The Old Way agenda (After a challenge resolves, the player who counted the lowest total STR must choose and kill a participating character he or she controls)?

 

I think yes, but I need confirmation

[-Istaril 157]

Yes.

[ktom 598]

Specifically, it is a card that attempts to act on her directly, so she ignores it.

The difference from the rest of this thread is that Pyat is a card that acts on her INDIRECTLY, so she does not ignore it.