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Hatred (Tau): Does it incorporate Kroot and Vespids?

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A player asked me last night if the Hatred (Tau) talent solely applied to the Tau race or their client species also. I'm inclined to say that it does and give him that answer. Any other takes on the matter?

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.....AS LONG AS SAID FOUL XENOS SPECIES HAS BEING IDENTIFIED AS TAU INTEGRATED..........I WOULD AGREE WITH YOUR RULING BROTHER!!!!!!........FOR RUSS AND THE ALL FATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

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Tau only, I'd say. Talent does what it says on the tin.

Otherwise you're opening yourself up to 'well, those humans/edlar are siding with the traitor marines/tau, so my hatred traitor marines/tau should give me a bonus' style whinging.

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Siranui said:

Tau only, I'd say. Talent does what it says on the tin.

Otherwise you're opening yourself up to 'well, those humans/edlar are siding with the traitor marines/tau, so my hatred traitor marines/tau should give me a bonus' style whinging.

That seems a little more abusive than any sane GM should allow.

I can see an arguement for including Vespid and Kroot, as they are typically considered Tau subject races,   I guess it wouid really depend on whether you interpret hatred Tau as hating the race Tau or the group Tau empire.

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My reading of the rules: no.

Keep in mind a Kroot and vespid are completely different speices. They have differing core beliefs; Kroot are tribal and mercenaries ever looking for the improvement of the genetic resources of their Kindred and don't really dig the whole greater good thing (they just didn't want to fight and thought the Tau could aid them in their own goals). The Vespid are hive-like, subordinate to their queen and (many believe) were tricked by the Tau to join the Empire (with mind contoling helmets no less). The Demiurg (if you even thought of them) aren't even Tau Empire subjects. They are only trading partners with the Tau.

Your character has grown to hate something of the Tau specifically. I have played an assault marine who got hatred:Tau because a bunch of firewarriors shot his face off (melted his eyes). Kroot weren't even a part of that encounter and I'd think it wierd if my character all of a sudden hated Kroot (more than all Deathwatch marines hate all xenos of course) for the same reason.

If you wanted to make a Hatred: Tau Ethos or Tau Empire elite option, you could. But it would have to be **** well more expensive than normal hatred (at least 2000 xp) as it would encompass multiple species. Allowing a PC to hate multiple species by taking one talent that just happens to be named the same as the government or military force they are fighting seems stretching credulity quite a bit. Once you start slipping on the slope, its kinda hard to slow down.

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 I would say that the talent does apply. From the Imperium's point of view the actions of the Tau Empire client races can be attributable to the Tau Empire as a whole. IMO, the hatred talent in this case applies to the minions of the Tau (though not necessarily traitor human sympathizers since that would fall better under heretics) in a kind of command responsibility kind of way. To draw a real life parallel, if someone had Hatred (Nazis), it wouldn't matter that you're fighting one of the Waffen SS divisions drawn from, say, Estonia, instead of Germany because you hate the organization and everything it does, as opposed to the race that makes up the organization (though in 40K terms all of the race seems to be part of the organization...)

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 I'm inclined to say it applies to all the races normally identified as being part of the Tau Empire. The only exception I would tink of would be any humans among their ranks... for them I'd say Hatred (Traitor or Heretic) applies better.

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Disguise said:

 I would say that the talent does apply. From the Imperium's point of view the actions of the Tau Empire client races can be attributable to the Tau Empire as a whole. IMO, the hatred talent in this case applies to the minions of the Tau (though not necessarily traitor human sympathizers since that would fall better under heretics) in a kind of command responsibility kind of way. To draw a real life parallel, if someone had Hatred (Nazis), it wouldn't matter that you're fighting one of the Waffen SS divisions drawn from, say, Estonia, instead of Germany because you hate the organization and everything it does, as opposed to the race that makes up the organization (though in 40K terms all of the race seems to be part of the organization...)

But what of the Tau traitor who serves the Imperium? You then wouldn't get the bonus against them?

The counter would be that the talent relies on a physical definition rather than an ethic, so there is no hatred (nazis), but hatred (blue eyed blonde haired ayrians). I guess it's a matter of personal 'take' on the matter, but I'd prefer a fixation to the race, rather than the ethos in order to avoid any trouble or grey areas later on. In many ways, Hatred (Tau) being somewhat watered in effect against Tau armies is kind of cool and represents their strengths: That of being a community of differing species and ethics rather than a single foe.

Also: Godwins. gran_risa.gif

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In the case of Nazis, I would say there could be Hatred (Germans).

Therefore, you don't have a bonus to hit a guy who was incorporated by force with the SS, but you do get your bonus against Goebbels.`Though as long as Nazis are concerned, the difference between the "species" (nationality) and the regime (nazism) are really slight, so it's not the best example there is ^^

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The talent specifies that your animosity is directed against "a group, orgainisation, or race" .  So I'd again say it depends on whether you and your GM want it to affect the Tau empire (organisation) or the Tau race.

If you interpret it as Tau empire, you'd have to not grant the bonus against the mercenary kroot and vespids working for the imerium, as Disguise mentions.

 

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 In case of doubt, I tend to go to Games Workshop's stuff. So, Tau is an army, like Eldar, Chaos, Necrons, Orks... So I'd allow the broad use of that.

 

And yes, the Kroot are there for the money and the buffett, but they are Xenos anyway, and the Imperium is extremely hostile to anything non-human.

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Some wildly differing opinions on the matter, fair enough! One other reason I've been inclined to include the client races in Hatred (Tau) is that while I see that talent on the DW advance scheme, I don't see any Hatred (Tau Empire), Hatred (Kroot) or Hated (pick a xenos).

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Hatred (any) is an option for the chaplain speciality. Which can be taken at rank four. Letting the chaplain take hatred against any enemy he chooses.

There are also elite advances. Again as an example my assault marine. He couldn't buy hatred (tau) at his rank but the GM allowed it since I had stated earlier my PC had fought under Tycho and the Firewarriors literally burned off my PC's face. And as I said earlier the kroot or vespid were not there when it happened so my hating them wouldn't make much sense.

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I forgot about the chaplain. But it does seem strange to me the only way to get Hatred (Kroot) without elite advances is by taking a very specific role, while Hatred (Tau) can be taken by any DW marine, if you assume Hatred (Tau) is just for Tau.

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 I'd also point a little detail I just remembered: Hatred gives WS bonus, and the Tau don't go melee (they leave that to their auxiliary troops), meaning it would be a talent with much less usefulness than a hatred against a foe that won't do anything he can to stay the hell away from you in melee.

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Well that extra +10 would help out if that crisis suit your fighting went into defensive stance. Or you're fighting in the dark (I know your helmet gives low light sight, just go with it). Lets not forget lightning claws either, an additional 1-2 points of damage, who wouldn't want that?

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Argus Van Het said:

 I'd also point a little detail I just remembered: Hatred gives WS bonus, and the Tau don't go melee (they leave that to their auxiliary troops), meaning it would be a talent with much less usefulness than a hatred against a foe that won't do anything he can to stay the hell away from you in melee.

A fair point. But that's what jump packs are for. Getting to the blueskins before they can run away. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Argus Van Het said:

 I'd also point a little detail I just remembered: Hatred gives WS bonus, and the Tau don't go melee (they leave that to their auxiliary troops), meaning it would be a talent with much less usefulness than a hatred against a foe that won't do anything he can to stay the hell away from you in melee.

Talents should never be judged and 'priced' by how small a difference they might make and how little a player might use them, but by how much they might be used. In my experience, a Talent that's 'bad value' for one character can be excellent for others, and players always have the option of *not* buying stuff that is not 'worth it' to them (*Cough* Astartes weapon specialisation, anyone? Anyone bought that one?)

In the hands of an assault marine or other melee character, Hatred (Tau) is an excellent choice, as melee is exactly where you want to be facing the little swines with their fancy guns.

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 Which is logical, but just the kind of grey area that can lead to disputes.

Assault Marine: "They're Kroot. I don't know that they're NOT hiring out to the Tau, so I should get my +10WS, because even though they aren't working for the Tau, I think they are and hate them."

I just prefer to avoid that kind of thing. If the Player wants something that's all-encompassing, then for 1000xp they can get +10WS, +2 melee damage to ALL xenos...

 

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