A few questions

[ktom 598]

alpha5099 said:

Serazu said:

 

Player A reveals a Plot with claim 1. Player B reveals the Power of Blood Plot. Player A wins his MIL challenge. Can Player B pick one of his nobles to satisfy the claim and, since they cannot be killed anyway, lose no characters at all?

 

 

"A character that cannot be killed/saved/etc. may not be chosen for that effect."

Alpha's answer does not really need to be expanded upon, but because someone always asks seems to ask when the rule is quoted without being specifically applied to the example in the question....

That means anything that is "cannot be killed" is an illegal target for a killing effect - so you must choose something else if you can. If you have anything other than a Noble out in the situation you describe, you have to choose it for claim. "Cannot be killed" will not let you dodge military claim.

[Serazu 50]

Is a case where player A reveals Wildfire Assault and player B, who has six characters in play, three of them being nobles, reveals Power of Blood and opts to pick his three nobles for the killing effect, effectively surviving the Assault unscathed, any different?

[thorin_81 0]

 Yes it's different, because with Wildfire Assault you choose who live, not the character that will die. So if you have 3 noble and 3 non nobles you choose the last 3 to survive and the other 3 cannot be killed.

 

Military claim is different, you have to choose the character that will DIE (not survive like Wildfire Assault). And someone that can't be killed can't be chosen

[ktom 598]

Serazu said:

Is a case where player A reveals Wildfire Assault and player B, who has six characters in play, three of them being nobles, reveals Power of Blood and opts to pick his three nobles for the killing effect, effectively surviving the Assault unscathed, any different?

Said another way, the highlighted part is what thorin is telling you is the wrong way to think of things. Wildfire is not "choose all but 3 characters, those characters die"; it is "choose 3 character, all other characters die."

So the whole "if something is 'cannot be killed,' you cannot choose it as the target of a killing effect" doesn't apply to Wildfire. Always be careful to look at what you are actually choosing the characters for. 

[Serazu 50]

Thank you both for your time.

[Ratatoskr 34]

ktom said:

The mistake is understandable because I think people have used the "he wasn't in play when Valar was initiated, so he survives its resolution" reasoning to justify not killing PotSun-Darkstar when using him to pay the cost of Maester of the Sun's save effect during a Valar. It wouldn't shock me if I said that without thinking it through, too. But looking at it now, Darkstar should die to Valar if you use him in the Maester of the Sun combo during an untargeted kill effect like Valar.

 

Yes, you have, for example here: "[...] since Darkstar missed the initiation of Valar, he is not subject to its resolution"

And frankly, I'm not sure if you haven't been right then. It feels wrong that cards should be subject to the resolution of an effect if they haven't been around when it was initiated.

I'm sending this to Nate.

[ktom 598]

You have to be careful with that line of thinking, though. If you play an even against me that says "choose an opponent, characters controlled by that opponent cannot be declared as defenders during intrigue challenges this phase," and I then Ambush in a Dragon Thief - who was not around for the initiation of that effect - could I use it to defend? Conventional wisdom says I cannot. The Darkstar/Valar thing looks pretty much th same, I think?

[Calepin 0]

2 questions for me :

When a Stalwart character die with a duplicate on him, what happen with the duplicate ? Do the stalwart keyword take is effect and go to the top of my deck or, because it's a duplicate, he's loosing is keyword and go to the graveyard (Graveyard ???? Hehehe... some of my remnant Magic the gathering past) ?

Balon Greyjoy. If Balon Greyjoy is the only King character in play, characters with lower STR than his cannot be declared as defenders while he is attacking. What happen if I declare a challenge with him, and after the defenders are declare, I boost is power beyond the defender's strenght ? If I'm reading right, the defender can defend legally ? This ability of him works only if I boost my power before I declare a challenge ?

And the subquestion with Balon Greyjoy. What happen with a character immune to character abilities ? Can he defend against Balon even if is strenght is lower than him ?

[ktom 598]

Calepin said:

When a Stalwart character die with a duplicate on him, what happen with the duplicate ? Do the stalwart keyword take is effect and go to the top of my deck or, because it's a duplicate, he's loosing is keyword and go to the graveyard (Graveyard ???? Hehehe... some of my remnant Magic the gathering past) ?

You know, you could always use the duplicate to save the Stalwart character from being killed. That is what you duped the character for, right? 

But, if this is some sort of a "cannot be saved" or "kill at 0" sort of situation where the dupe isn't helping, the Stalwart character dies, Stalwart kicks in, and it is returned to the top of your deck instead of the dead pile. The dupe - which, as per the rules, is considered titleless, traitless, and textless - doesn't have Stalwart and is simply discarded when the character leaves play.

Calepin said:

Balon Greyjoy. If Balon Greyjoy is the only King character in play, characters with lower STR than his cannot be declared as defenders while he is attacking. What happen if I declare a challenge with him, and after the defenders are declare, I boost is power beyond the defender's strenght ? If I'm reading right, the defender can defend legally ? This ability of him works only if I boost my power before I declare a challenge ?

Balon's restriction is against declaring the characters as defenders, not against counting their STR in the challenge (like, say, the Intimidate keyword). So if you boost his STR after defenders are declared, it's not going to make his ability any more effective in the past. If you want the STR boost to affect defenders, boost the STR before they are declared.

Calepin said:

And the subquestion with Balon Greyjoy. What happen with a character immune to character abilities ? Can he defend against Balon even if is strenght is lower than him ?

Yes. Characters with immunity to character abilities will ignore the restriction he places on defending characters.

[Calepin 0]

This time, 5 questions !

1. Poison wine : Any Phase: Kneel 1 influence to move Poisoned Wine to another eligible character. Well, who can pay 1 influence ? Only the player that put the poison wine, or anybody ? And another one. If the character dies when he have this item on him, can I move the poison wine on another character before the character quit the table ?

2. I did have a location attach to my house card, like Lord Eddard's Chamber. Is it considered like a location in that case or an attachment ? When we played a game, someone put the plot "Attack from the sea" that kneel all locations. So, what happen with this one ?

3. Threat from the North : All characters get -1 STR and are discarded from play (cannot be saved) if their STR is 0. Is this a one shot penalty that works only in the plot phase or all the phase of a round ? The answer make a huge difference. The situation that happen is this : I played this plot and in the marshalling phase, put some poison wine on characters of 3 strenght. Because we weren't sure about how long was the duration of the effect of the plot, we tought that because they're strenght was at 0, they died with the plot effect. Is that a correct way to use this plot ?

3b : Same pattern with the death of Ser Jorah Mormont that gives character I control -1 strenght until the end of the phase. Can it be working with threat of the North and poison wine like the question before ?

4. Duplicate, when they die, do the go in the discard pile ?

[ktom 598]

Calepin said:

1. Poison wine : Any Phase: Kneel 1 influence to move Poisoned Wine to another eligible character. Well, who can pay 1 influence ? Only the player that put the poison wine, or anybody ? And another one. If the character dies when he have this item on him, can I move the poison wine on another character before the character quit the table ?

It doesn't say that anyone can use the effect, so only the person who controls the card can do trigger it. And since it is an "Any Phase" action, if the character dies out from under the attachment, you will not have a chance to use the "Any Phase" effect before the character leaves play (taking the attachment with it).

Calepin said:

2. I did have a location attach to my house card, like Lord Eddard's Chamber. Is it considered like a location in that case or an attachment ? When we played a game, someone put the plot "Attack from the sea" that kneel all locations. So, what happen with this one ?

When a card is attached to another card, it is considered an attachment - and only an attachment - no matter what type of card it is "naturally." The whole benefit of playing this card as an attachment is to keep it out of the reach of thinks like Attack from the Sea (although vulnerable to thinks like The Mad King's Legacy).

Calepin said:

3. Threat from the North : All characters get -1 STR and are discarded from play (cannot be saved) if their STR is 0. Is this a one shot penalty that works only in the plot phase or all the phase of a round ? The answer make a huge difference. The situation that happen is this : I played this plot and in the marshalling phase, put some poison wine on characters of 3 strenght. Because we weren't sure about how long was the duration of the effect of the plot, we tought that because they're strenght was at 0, they died with the plot effect. Is that a correct way to use this plot ?

If you had a plot that said "all characters get +1 STR," the absence of the "when revealed" text would make you assume the characters got the +1 as long as the plot was active, not just during the plot phase, right? Threat from the North does not say "when revealed," so its effect - including the discard at 0 - is active as long as the plot is revealed. And yes, that means that if multiple effects combine to get a higher STR character all the way down to 0 during the phase, the character will be discarded.

Calepin said:

3b : Same pattern with the death of Ser Jorah Mormont that gives character I control -1 strenght until the end of the phase. Can it be working with threat of the North and poison wine like the question before ?

Of course. -1 STR is -1 STR. It doesn't really matter how it got there.

Calepin said:

4. Duplicate, when they die, do the go in the discard pile ?

When would a duplicate die? Wouldn't you use them (as the rules say, by discarding them) to save the character so they didn't die? Or are you asking what would happen if a character with a duplicate dies when there is a "cannot be saved" restriction? In that case, the character goes to the dead pile and the duplicate goes to the discard pile.

[Calepin 0]

Thanks a lot for the answers. For my question 4, it was for the case of a character that lost a live (duplicate) only. But, what happen when it's, for example, a duplicate location thas is stealed ? Do I negate the ability with discarting a duplicate ?

[radiskull 39]

You cannot use a duplicate to prevent someone from taking control of your stuff.  Duplicates can only save against kill, discard, "return to hand", or "return to deck" effects. (And I'm not sure about the last one.)

[ktom 598]

By discarding a duplicate, you save the card from being removed from play. The duplicate is always discarded as a cost of the save. It is not like the "leaving play" effect happens to the duplicate instead of the original. 

Taking control of a card is not removing it from play, so the duplicate cannot "save" from that. And when you take control of a unique card, you take control of any duplicates on it as well.

[Khudzlin 734]

radiskull said:

You cannot use a duplicate to prevent someone from taking control of your stuff.  Duplicates can only save against kill, discard, "return to hand", or "return to deck" effects. (And I'm not sure about the last one.)

Returned to the deck is mentioned in the Core Set rules. Put in shadows isn't mentioned anywhere, though, which means you can't save from that with a dupe (or anything else I know of, for that matter). Until FFG issues an erratum to the rules to make discarding a duplicate work against any "leave play" effect, of course.

[Serazu 50]

How do you hand "shuffle"? When an effect says to shuffle a card in a deck, do you just squeeze it in or do you squeeze it in and then you shuffle the deck?

[ktom 598]

It's sort of a "plain language" thing, not a rule or ruling.

Everyone I know reads "shuffle into your deck" as including actually shuffling your deck, no matter where you put the card in the deck to begin with.

[Calepin 0]

The stormlands : Your revealed plot card gains the Power Struggle trait. If it has the printed Power Struggle trait, raise your claim value by 1 during Power challenges.

So, must I understand that every turn, with any plot, my power challenges have a claim value of 2 ?

 

Storm's end : If you win dominance, instead of claiming 1 power for your House, you may claim 1 power each for 2 different characters.

It gives me 1 power on two baratheon characters instead of 1 power on my house ? Is that simple ?

[radiskull 39]

Calepin said:

The stormlands : Your revealed plot card gains the Power Struggle trait. If it has the printed Power Struggle trait, raise your claim value by 1 during Power challenges.

So, must I understand that every turn, with any plot, my power challenges have a claim value of 2 ?

 

Storm's end : If you win dominance, instead of claiming 1 power for your House, you may claim 1 power each for 2 different characters.

It gives me 1 power on two baratheon characters instead of 1 power on my house ? Is that simple ?

1) No, your Power challenges have a claim value of 2 only when your plot has the printed Power Struggle trait, meaning it has ink on the card in the shape of the words "Power Struggle".

2) Yes, it's that simple.

[Calepin 0]

radiskull said:

 

1) No, your Power challenges have a claim value of 2 only when your plot has the printed Power Struggle trait, meaning it has ink on the card in the shape of the words "Power Struggle".

How about the first sentence "Your revealed plot card gains the Power Struggle trait". What I understand here that each of my plot will gains this trait. It seems clear enough ? I don't understand why you're coming with this answer.

[Ratatoskr 34]

Calepin said:

 

How about the first sentence "Your revealed plot card gains the Power Struggle trait". What I understand here that each of my plot will gains this trait. It seems clear enough ? I don't understand why you're coming with this answer.

Read again:

"Your revealed plot card gains the Power Struggle trait. If it has the printed Power Struggle trait, raise your claim value by 1 during Power challenges."

Obviously, you missed the word "printed" in the second sentence. The claim raising happens only if your revealed plot card has Power Struggle printed on it. Clear now?

[Underworld40k 51]

 The difference is between 'printed' and 'gained' text.

For something to be 'printed' it must be physically on the card itself, cards can gain traits via a number of mechanics but they will not be 'printed' traits.

The best example i can think of from the top of my head is the errata to the maesters path that changed it from 'a maester character you control' to 'printed maester trait'. This was done to stop people making a character a maester via apprentice collar and stacking all chains from the agenda on that character.

As an example for power struggle, the stormlands give your plot card 'power struggle' and that CAN trigger any effect that checks for that trait, such as Renly Baratheon from 'the ravens song' whos text reads.

"If Renly Baratheon is the only King in play,he gains: 'after you win a power challenge and there is at least 1 Power Struggle plot card revealed,draw a card."

Renly only checks for the power struggle trait, not that it is printed on your card, nor does he care how it got there. So stormlands ensures you will have that criteria met.

But the claim raise from the stormlands requires it to be physicaly on the revealed plot card.


 

 

[ktom 598]

Because of the word "printed" in the second sentence, the effect is essentially comes down to "your revealed plot gains the Power Struggle trait; if it already had the Power Struggle trait written on it when this ability gave it that trait, raise the claim value during power challenges."

[Calepin 0]

thank you ! well, I'll look for more synergy with the power struggle traits, then.

[Calepin 0]

Do the plot "stay of execution" can protect a king against the plot "Wildfire assault" ?