Hand of the King format questions

[zarius 1]

Hello everyone!

We're going to host a small Hand of the King format tourney in the next weeks, and we have some questions about it, hope you can help us, here they are:

1. If my opponent challenges my HotK in military and wins, what comes first, claim or gold token steal?
2. In the previous situation, if claim comes first and I choose HotK to die and returns to out of play state, my opponent still steals a gold token to his HotK?
3. If my opponent challenges my HotK and I win, do I steal from him?
4. In the previous situation, what if his HotK is out of play, do i steal from him?
5. If I choose Sir Arys Oakheart as my HotK, can I use his ability each time he reaches to 3 gold tokens?
6. If a terminal effect affects a HotK, have he to remove all gold tokens until goes out of play?

Thank you in advance!!

[ktom 598]

You may be over-thinking this. Very little actually changes in terms of game-play, so figuring out the answer to most of your questions follows the same rules as always. The biggest question from your list is:

zarius said:

1. If my opponent challenges my HotK in military and wins, what comes first, claim or gold token steal?

For this question, the rules state: 

• "If a player wins a challenge against his opponent’s Hand of the King, in addition to the regular claim effects, he also removes 1 Gold Token from his opponent’s Hand of the King, and adds 1 Gold Token to his own."

What that statement ("in addition to the regular claim effects...") means is that the movement of the gold token from one Hand to the other is part of claim. So it isn't a question of which happens first. They happen at the same time. It would be like saying "in a two claim military challenge, which character dies first?" They die at the same time.

That feeds into the next question:

zarius said:

2. In the previous situation, if claim comes first and I choose HotK to die and returns to out of play state, my opponent still steals a gold token to his HotK?

If you are dealing with a lost military challenge against the Hand and you choose the Hand to be the character to "die" for claim, both the removal of 1 gold token (for death) and movement of 1 gold token (for lost challenge against Hand) happen at the same time as part of the same effect resolution. So there isn't a "which one happens first" question, meaning that there is no question of "lost one to claim, so he is not in play, so I don't have to move one to your Hand" situation. In that situation, 2 gold tokens will always leave the Hand (one discarded, one moved to the opponent's Hand), and then the Hand is considered to be out of play.

The only time the "order" of these two non-conflicting parts of the resolution in this situation would matter is when the Hand has exactly 1 gold token on it. So is it discarded or moved? In that case, the First Player would decide.

zarius said:

3. If my opponent challenges my HotK and I win, do I steal from him?

Of course not. The rules state that the "steal" of the gold token is part of claim. When you win on defense, there is no claim. So winning a challenge against your Hand on defense doesn't gain anything - other than not losing.

zarius said:

4. In the previous situation, what if his HotK is out of play, do i steal from him?

Not an issue since you don't get to steal when you win a challenge against your Hand on defense. In the larger sense, though, if the Hand is out of play, it doesn't interact with the game at all (beyond the accumulation of gold each round), so how could you steal from it? 

zarius said:

If I choose Sir Arys Oakheart as my HotK, can I use his ability each time he reaches to 3 gold tokens?

Yes. It came into play, so the Response is valid. Note that this doesn't work with Responses to "after this card is played;" but Responses to "after this card enters/comes into play" would be allowed.

zarius said:

If a terminal effect affects a HotK, have he to remove all gold tokens until goes out of play?

If you have a terminal effect that would remove the Hand from play, you would keep removing gold tokens until it is removed from the terminal state. That means that if you have a Hand in a terminal state, you would remove gold tokens until it had "printed cost - 1" gold tokens on it. At that point, it is out of play and not in the terminal state anymore. This is really quite similar to the rules about not being allowed to save a character in a terminal state unless the save also removes it from the terminal state.

 

[zarius 1]

 Thank you for the answers, some were as we thought, but need to be sure!

[Winged_Human 0]

Where can I find rules for the HotK tournament style?

 

[oshi2 0]

A couple more questions...

Now i realize this format was hardly designed for melee, you can tell by some of the wording... but thats what our community plays almost exclusively so...

what happens when a challenge against a hand gets redirected via crown regent... is it then made against the next players hand? or just the next player? do you get to choose? or against the next player and somehow still against the original hand?
How about if it is redirected by Lord Commander of Kingsguard? must it be against the player, or can the lord commanders hand be targeted...
if the new target is not another hand, has the option to challenge a hand exhausted for that round? or can a following challenge be made against a hand.

After i typed it out, the answers are kind of obvious to me now, but id like confirmation...

Next question is related to what KTOM already answered, but maybe ive throught about it too much... If you lose a military challenge against your hand... and choose the hand to die... the hand enters the moribund state, but hasnt actually been killed yet, and at the same time he loses a gold...if this loss of gold send him out of play, would he also avoid being killed and thus only lose 1 gold token total as a result?
I ask under the assumption that leaving play due to loss of gold is pretty much 'instant', but dying to claim still has room for responses...

[ktom 598]

oshi said:

what happens when a challenge against a hand gets redirected via crown regent... is it then made against the next players hand? or just the next player? do you get to choose? or against the next player and somehow still against the original hand?

A redirected challenge is a redirected challenge. So you can't say "I'm attacking Player B, who is on line for claim, but I'm still attacking Player A's Hand." That just makes no sense.

The rules for redirecting say that there must be another legal opponent/defender in order to redirect the challenge. The challenge, as declared, is against the Hand. So that means in order for the Crown Regent to redirect the attack, not only does their have to be another player the attacker could go after (taking into account "supports," Mutual Cause, and the like), but that player's Hand must be in-play and available for the attack. Otherwise, there is no legal alternative defender and, as the rules say, redirection is not allowed.

oshi said:

How about if it is redirected by Lord Commander of Kingsguard? must it be against the player, or can the lord commanders hand be targeted...

When you attack a player's Hand, the Hand's STR counts in the challenge. Therefore, the challenge will never lack defenders and the Lord Commander's play restrictions will never be met. The Lord Commander cannot take a challenge made against a Hand. (Makes sense - the Kingsguard's primary duty is to protect the king.) This reasoning works for declaring "Supports" defenders, too.

oshi said:

if the new target is not another hand, has the option to challenge a hand exhausted for that round? or can a following challenge be made against a hand.

Addressed above. Crown Regent cannot redirect the challenge against a new defender unless the Hand is available - and the Lord Commander can never redirect a challenge against the Hand anyway. So the conditions here will never actually be met.

oshi said:

If you lose a military challenge against your hand... and choose the hand to die... the hand enters the moribund state, but hasnt actually been killed yet, and at the same time he loses a gold...if this loss of gold send him out of play, would he also avoid being killed and thus only lose 1 gold token total as a result?

Reread what I said above. The two gold tokens (one discarded for being killed, one moved for losing the anti-Hand challenge) leave him at exactly the same time. It doesn't matter if he only needs to lose 1 in order to be knocked out of play because he doesn't lose just 1 - he loses 2. So your scenario of "lose 1, leave play (since applicable), not be able to lose the second" never happens. It is always "lose 2, leave play (if applicable)."

But even if it worked the way you suggest, the Hand would be moribund after losing the first gold token, so still lose the second - while moribund and "leaving play."

[oshi2 0]

sounds good, kinda didn't realize "leaving play" was a state before actually leaving play.

The redirection thing totally wasn't what i expected, but makes sense... 

[ktom 598]

oshi said:

sounds good, kinda didn't realize "leaving play" was a state before actually leaving play.

"Moribund" is the state of "leaving play" before being physically removed from the table. Check the rules on it in the FAQ again.

[the1andonlime 0]

 I have a question too.

The variant rules state that "If a Hand of the King has fewer gold tokens than its printed cost, it is considered out of play, and does not interact with the game until it has the necessary number of gold tokens."  Does this also mean that the Hand cannot gain gold tokens stolen from other Hands until it is in play?

[ktom 598]

the1andonlime said:

Does this also mean that the Hand cannot gain gold tokens stolen from other Hands until it is in play?

Read the rules again. The whole "steal" thing isn't really how it works.

• If a player wins a challenge against his opponent’s Hand of the King, in addition to the regular claim effects, he also removes 1 Gold Token from his opponent’s Hand of the King, and adds 1 Gold Token to his own.

So you don't really "move" the gold token from one Hand to the other (although, it might have read that way in an earlier version of the rules). Instead, you are removing one from the defeated Hand and adding one to your own. That is no more "interacting with the game" than putting the normal gold token on your Hand during Marshaling. So if your Hand is not in play, it can still gain gold tokens when you win a challenge against an opponent's Hand.

[tulaksam 0]

In rereading the varient rules, I also have a question about win conditions.  The rules state that you must have more gold tokens -and- be in play, along with meeting any other win conditions, to win.  This seems to favor those who take a very expensive hand rather than those who choose an inexpensive hand, since you can have challenges only against a hand in play, even if yours isn't.  Are we reading this correctly?

[Rozy 1]

An attacked Hand of the King automatically counts its STR during challenges initiated against it (even if it is knelt); other eligible characters may also be declared as defenders.

Does this means that he can defend a challemge he has no icon to normally participate?

[ktom 598]

Rozy said:

Does this means that he can defend a challemge he has no icon to normally participate?

Like every other situation, whether or not a character has the appropriate challenge icon has absolutely no bearing on counting STR when the challenge resolves. If the character is participating, it counts its STR in the challenge.

The rules say that when the challenge is made against the Hand, it "automatically" falls into that category. So the Hand is defending any challenge initiated against it, whether it has the icon or not - because the rules say so, not because you ever declare it as a defender (the only time you would actually check the icon).

[ktom 598]

tulaksam said:

This seems to favor those who take a very expensive hand rather than those who choose an inexpensive hand, since you can have challenges only against a hand in play, even if yours isn't.  Are we reading this correctly?

Not necessarily.

Let's say that you and I both have 14 power, and both of us have our Hand's in play with 5 gold tokens on each. My Hand has a printed cost of 2, yours has a printed cost of 5. Whose hand is more likely to leave play before gaining the 15th power?

A lower cost Hand might be more susceptible to challenges, but it is also more likely to be used - and I can always defend to win any challenge you make against my Hand. You'll have more game options with an inexpensive Hand, but it will be more vulnerable and you'll have to put more into defense. Whether that means you will always be at a disadvantage is something of a personal interpretation.

[Nipponb 0]

ktom said:

tulaksam said:

This seems to favor those who take a very expensive hand rather than those who choose an inexpensive hand, since you can have challenges only against a hand in play, even if yours isn't.  Are we reading this correctly?

Not necessarily.

 

Let's say that you and I both have 14 power, and both of us have our Hand's in play with 5 gold tokens on each. My Hand has a printed cost of 2, yours has a printed cost of 5. Whose hand is more likely to leave play before gaining the 15th power?

A lower cost Hand might be more susceptible to challenges, but it is also more likely to be used - and I can always defend to win any challenge you make against my Hand. You'll have more game options with an inexpensive Hand, but it will be more vulnerable and you'll have to put more into defense. Whether that means you will always be at a disadvantage is something of a personal interpretation.

I am afraid that is not quite the answer we were looking for.  Lets see if I can explain it a bit easier.  If you have a 2 gold cost Hand, and your opponent has a 5 gold Hand.  At turn two your hand my be attacked, but you can do nothing against theirs.  But say you have a power rush deck and by turn 3 have hit 15 power and your Hand is in play with 2 gold on it and they have 4gold.  Their hand can still not be attacked and you still can't win is the question.  So if you wish to build a delay deck, the larger your Hand the better off you are as no matter how many power you give up your opponent can't win until your Hand is in play and they are able to win a Hand Challenge. 

[ktom 598]

Nipponb said:

 But say you have a power rush deck and by turn 3 have hit 15 power and your Hand is in play with 2 gold on it and they have 4gold.  Their hand can still not be attacked and you still can't win is the question.

You are misinterpreting the rules. In the scenario you describe, the Hand in play (with 2) wins the game over the Hand that is not in play (with 4).

Remember that if a Hand is not in play, it does not interact with the game. So if your Hand is in play and your opponents is not, you win the game regardless of how many gold tokens are on your opponent's (out-of-play) Hand because when the win condition goes to compare the number of gold tokens on your Hands, it doesn't find your opponent's. Because of that "does not interact" rule, having more gold tokens than your opponent's Hand is only required if both are in play. As a result, it can actually be a good thing to have a lower-cost Hand because it is more likely to be in play.

In short, you do not count the gold tokens on an out-of-play Hand when looking at the win condition.

[Nipponb 0]

Thank you, we just wished to make sure of that.  It was the and that was causing us concerned.  Plus, if I could make a delay deck then it was something to think about.

[Fotonurth 0]

 I'm interested in how the restricted list works with HoTK. If your hand is restricted, then does it count as the restricted card?

We were play testing last night and all we had were questions. 

[ktom 598]

Fotonurth said:

I'm interested in how the restricted list works with HoTK. If your hand is restricted, then does it count as the restricted card?

Pretty straightforward, really.

The Hand you choose is considered part of your deck, although it has special rules of use/play/coming into play/etc. We know it is considered part of your deck because your selection of it is a deckbuilding rule. (Unlike House cards, which are chosen as part of the player "identity," not built into your deck, or Agendas, which are modifiers to the House card.) Since it is part of your deck, if you choose Val to be your Hand (the only card on the restricted list that could be chosen as your Hand), she counts as the 1 restricted card you are allowed to have in your deck. 

[Fotonurth 0]

 Figured as much. Thanks for the clarification. This format is challenging to build for.

[ktom 598]

Fotonurth said:

This format is challenging to build for.

I suppose. To me, there are only so many Hands worth playing because I'd want to take advantage of the fact that I can have them come in and out of play frequently. The ones I would be most likely to choose are:

Jon Arryn - "Kill" him, put a Noble into play, put another gold token on him to get him back into play, etc. Lot's of good OOH nobles suddenly become cheap.

Varamyr Sixskins - Creatures come into play for the phase for the price of discarding a gold token from him.

Benjen Stark/Ser Arys Oakheart - 3-cost characters with solid "comes into play" abilities. Rinse. Repeat.

 

You pick your Hand, then build the deck that takes the most advantage of it.

[the1andonlime 0]

Interesting note about Jon Arryn.

So what happens when the Hand is killed (or discarded), but still has enough tokens to be in play?

Is it still considered to be killed (or discarded)?

If not, how is this different from it losing enough tokens to leave play, since it is a replacement effect either way?

[ktom 598]

the1andonlime said:

So what happens when the Hand is killed (or discarded), but still has enough tokens to be in play?

Is it still considered to be killed (or discarded)?

It stays in play by the rules of the format, but you still Respond to it being killed or discarded by the rules for replacement effects.

Think of Aeron Damphair or Drowned Disciple. When they would be killed, you put them on the bottom of your deck. They are still considered to be killed (so you could use Responses like CS-Joffrey or "Die for Your King!"), you just do something different than put them in the dead pile when they are killed.

 

Same deal with the Hand. It is considered to have been killed or discarded for the purposes of Responses, but (as per the "Hand" rules), you discard a gold token instead of putting it in your dead/discard pile (and take it out of play if it goes below the printed-cost gold threshold.)

the1andonlime said:

If not, how is this different from it losing enough tokens to leave play, since it is a replacement effect either way?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The only replacement effect is "discard a gold token instead of removing it from play or changing control." The "leaves play if it doesn't have enough gold tokens on it" is a completely separate, though related, rule of the format.

[the1andonlime 0]

ktom said:

the1andonlime said:

If not, how is this different from it losing enough tokens to leave play, since it is a replacement effect either way?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The only replacement effect is "discard a gold token instead of removing it from play or changing control." The "leaves play if it doesn't have enough gold tokens on it" is a completely separate, though related, rule of the format.

 

Nothing, since the answer to the initial question is "yes". I was trying to pre-empt possible answers and asking questions for them before they are given (was hoping to reduce the need for back and forth posts).

In any case, thanks for your quick reply.

[JerusalemJones 1]

Just want to clarify something that I think we were doing wrong today.

If I attack the HotK who is knelt, yet counts his strength for the challenge, then that challenge is not unopposed if he declares no defenders because he is counting X STR, correct?