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Major Mishap

Expansion sets please

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 i want this as well.

 

Buying Miniatures by the unit is something that has crashed AT:43, new confrontation, mutant Chronicles, and i will go ahead and throw crimson sky’s in there as well. It's something that is difficult for stores to manage and much harder for casual players to buy in to.

 

I guess their argument is they want players to collect armies and participate in organized play (witch requires unit buys). But I know many people who were very excited when they heard about the original product format.

 

I would ask for a compromise.

 

Units that an army can only have one of should come in campaign packs.

 

So the command squads should probably have been in operation cyclone. It may encourage/force a few hobby army builders to buy the set. But it would have made operation cyclone such a better product and offered a real value to casual players.

 

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TylerT said:

 i want this as well.

 

Buying Miniatures by the unit is something that has crashed AT:43, new confrontation, mutant Chronicles, and i will go ahead and throw crimson sky’s in there as well. It's something that is difficult for stores to manage and much harder for casual players to buy in to.

  

if that were true , then classic battletech , WH40K WH Fantasy , Flames of War , Wings of War , all CMG's , all CCG's , Heroscape , Firestorm Armada , and pretty much EVERY miniatures game would have died long ago and the genre would have ended .  its an industry standard that had noting to do with any of those 3 games going bust . if you look up the games i listed , most even have a starter that has figs in it , that cost less than their regular single units .

as a rule , miniatures games (which in reality is what this game is ) are picked up by people who want to customize their forces , not JUST get ONE of every unit out there . i for instance am primarily playing germans , so i dont want more american stuff (though i gotta admit those new walkers in the light set look SWEEEEEEEET ! ) , i want more german stuff . and just trading items out of a big box set wont guarantee i get what i want .

the only market that supprts the big box set exclusivly is bigbox retailers like toysRus , walmart , etc....... and then only for games marketed towards families or small children .  these groups only play super casual games on rare occasions , even children generaly play a game only for a short time before a new toy steals their attentions . so you end up looking for games like monopoly , battleship , sorry , yahtzee , etc ..........

and the individual component sales model would still thrive even if they did do the sets as big boxes since alot of people want multiples of ceratin units , so people will buy sets and then price gouge on sites like EBAY .

and you cant cater to both people who want big boxes and individual components because if you sold both , again you would have people buying the big sets and selling single units on ebay for more than they cost , but less than FFG would . the single unit sales simply gives FFG more of the profits that would have been made by the gougers , which helps with point 2 below .

 

while we may not like the increased cost of buying individual compnenets , i want you to consider a few thinsg :

1) the game model uses much smaller units than some other games like WH40k that inflate unit sizes to make you buy more figs . DT prices are MUCH lower per unit making it easier to get into and afford to customize . thise is especially true of the walkers , where the costs are even lower than they were for AT-43 , and about HALF what GW wants for their walkers and vehicles .

2) FFG isnt a nonprofit charity , so they actually DO need to make money . and YES , this money goes to pay staff , but it also goes to pay for new product developement . this is a two fold aspect of the industry , and ghere is a dirty little FACT . while we would like for all the profits from this game to pay JUST for developeing THIS game , some of its cash also helps pay to develope other games , and the dirtyy part that no PLAYER want to see is that it was profits from other lines that helped develope THIS line . its a very tight race between all the games , and they all help support each other . for instance , lets say that THIS product line had an expansion that just bombed , and had bad reviews and poor sales . inorder for FFG to consider putting out anotherexpanson to keep the line going , all their other lines are helping cover the cost of the bomb  AND the cost of the next expansion , AND to develope new game lines for other properties .

3) for this game to come into being , they had to buy the rights , and pay for the product , this requires upfront capital , and there are only 2 ways to get it , either by saving up all the above profits from all their products , or borrow from a bank which then requires they pay interest on it , either way , they have a HUGE expense before this game even hit shelves . its easy to over look this cost becuase we go to our FLGS and see just a few copies , but consider all the copies they had to buy upfront to stock their warehouse to fill orders WORLDWIDE.

4) and as i said , this is just an industry standard , they arent doing anything that tons of other product lines arent doing . doing this helps spread out releases which help keep the game going . if they JUST did big box sets , then they have 2 choices , blow through all their planned releases in less than a year to keep the community interested and buying (which speeds an end to the game ) , or spread them out and lose sales when players pick up other games in the intermission . thats WHY this is an industry standard , just look at all the people that were griping that they wanted more dust stuff between the release in late october , and when it finally started trickling out in january .  

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If they want people to collect armies:

Then why not actually sell army packs?

 

Theme them around specific campaigns or heroes, bam. You've got a winner right there.

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GrandInquisitorKris said:

TylerT said:

 

 i want this as well.

 

Buying Miniatures by the unit is something that has crashed AT:43, new confrontation, mutant Chronicles, and i will go ahead and throw crimson sky’s in there as well. It's something that is difficult for stores to manage and much harder for casual players to buy in to.

  

 

 

if that were true , then classic battletech , WH40K WH Fantasy , Flames of War , Wings of War , all CMG's , all CCG's , Heroscape , Firestorm Armada , and pretty much EVERY miniatures game would have died long ago and the genre would have ended .  its an industry standard that had noting to do with any of those 3 games going bust . if you look up the games i listed , most even have a starter that has figs in it , that cost less than their regular single units .

there are a number of things that make those games distinct, classic hobby games rarely have the critical mass to sustain the overhead of plastic minitures. Even the largest games like 40K and war machine rarely use plastic models.

 

Hero scape and wings of war have been successful, however it's fair to note these products have radically different structure at the distribution level. they are both sold to stores like action figures in “cases” that contain a given number of each product in a series. This makes it very easy for stores to order and stock (this does have a few problems but if you sell enough it balances out fairly well).

 

I think it's also fair to note that hero scape lived a very short life as a hobby shop exclusive product. Wings of war is also created by Nexux a division of the hobby model company italeri and they probably understand how to sell plastic figures quite well.

 

The main difference between Dust and products like AT:43 is that Dust is a much better hobby product (pre-asmbeld but not pre-painted) so I think dust has a much better chance of success then AT:43 did.

 

Still I really wanted that original product line. it sounded like such a solid product model. it's not really the cost it's being able to buy a product and have a total usable product.

i bought operation cyclone but most missions require more points then i actually have, the box of operation cyclone says i need the base game to play it, it does not say i need the base game and a few booster packs. That kind of thing is what I wanted to avoid with the old product model.

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TylerT said:

 

 

TylerT said:

 

 

 

there are a number of things that make those games distinct, classic hobby games rarely have the critical mass to sustain the overhead of plastic minitures. Even the largest games like 40K and war machine rarely use plastic models.

 

Hero scape and wings of war have been successful, however it's fair to note these products have radically different structure at the distribution level. they are both sold to stores like action figures in “cases” that contain a given number of each product in a series. This makes it very easy for stores to order and stock (this does have a few problems but if you sell enough it balances out fairly well).

 

I think it's also fair to note that hero scape lived a very short life as a hobby shop exclusive product. Wings of war is also created by Nexux a division of the hobby model company italeri and they probably understand how to sell plastic figures quite well.

 

The main difference between Dust and products like AT:43 is that Dust is a much better hobby product (pre-asmbeld but not pre-painted) so I think dust has a much better chance of success then AT:43 did.

 

Still I really wanted that original product line. it sounded like such a solid product model. it's not really the cost it's being able to buy a product and have a total usable product.

i bought operation cyclone but most missions require more points then i actually have, the box of operation cyclone says i need the base game to play it, it does not say i need the base game and a few booster packs. That kind of thing is what I wanted to avoid with the old product model.

 

 

 

wait ...huh ...what ? WH40K uses MOSTLY plastic minis , and War Machine has said they plan to do the same . it cuts their costs and supports the standard model .

Wings of War is another FFG product that again follows the same distribution model .

Heroscape began as a big box retailer item ( game stores could buy it , but had to make a $5000 min purchase to match the cost that big box retaliers could sell it at ) and indeed there were several "exclusives " sold only at walmart , toysRus , etc............ , NOT a game store exclusive . when sales died enough in the bigbox retailers , they expanded it to INCLUDE hobby stores .

as a vetran of many minis games , including 40K , i can tell you from experience that the models being base coated only only really effects sales to a small percent of the hobbyists because if you go to a game store and look at the games those games have alot of player turnover , and alot of players play with unpainted armies . that stay that way for a long while . and of those that are painted , some pay others to paint them , or bought them already painted on ebay or the like . as much griping as there would be if the figs were PAINTED , there was just as much griping when this all started because the game ISNT fully painted . as further evidence , look at the number of people who have picked up the delux edition at $300 .

 

and as for what the OC box said , well pretty much EVERY expansion says that because you need the base rules that dont come in the expansion . if you look at any expansion from the other minis companies , they presume that anyone playing will take it as a given that you will need more figs and are buying more figs to flesh out your armies . again , pretty much an industry standard .

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Most wargamers are meglomaniacs, if they are building an army they will want everything and then pick and choose to add extra units of their favourite.

Buying the new expansion units is more double the cost of equivelent units and the ok priced game now becomes expensive for the few models that you actually get.  Most, if not all?, other games companies offer army deals, I'd like DT to do the same so it's more affordable and therefore more enjoyable to collect and game.  There's nothing I'd like more than to put in a pre-order for the Cyclone expansions, but I can't, which is a big downer on the game for me.

There are many pro's and cons as you have discussed above on selling by the army  or unit and both are correct and really the game needs both, but then you get double the cons.

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Major Mishap said:

Most wargamers are meglomaniacs, if they are building an army they will want everything and then pick and choose to add extra units of their favourite.

Buying the new expansion units is more double the cost of equivelent units and the ok priced game now becomes expensive for the few models that you actually get.  Most, if not all?, other games companies offer army deals, I'd like DT to do the same so it's more affordable and therefore more enjoyable to collect and game.  There's nothing I'd like more than to put in a pre-order for the Cyclone expansions, but I can't, which is a big downer on the game for me.

There are many pro's and cons as you have discussed above on selling by the army  or unit and both are correct and really the game needs both, but then you get double the cons.

not quite , yes , most want MOST of the units for their chosen faction , but not necessarily all . and buying a big box set as you suggest would give a buyer another faction they are not likly to play , which either gets traded off , or sold on ebay if they cant find anoyone else to trade . even now , its not uncommon to go on ebay and find auctions bitting out starter set parts for other games .

again , this is the standard business model for just about every game company , look up the contents of the starters for any of the other minis companies (major AND minor ) , and you will see this is how they operate , and while you are at it , look up the costs PER unit of those other companies , a single dread for WH40K is $40+ , a squade of 5 space marine scouts is $25 , and the list goes on .......... and you still have to assemble and paint them .  

i could see them doing army boxes MUCH later on , BUT not for the same discount that the starter boxes are at ( again , newer industry standard)  , and if they follow suit to the army boxes put out by other companies those boxes will contain mostly useless filler , not any of the cool units that they know you will be willing to pay extra for . its good as filler , but not much else . its made doubly pointless in a game like this that has no set army structure so that players can choose what units they WANT as opposed to the mandated filler that the company chooses to MAKE you buy in order to play .  

complaining that its double the cost of the starter ; go to a game store and look at each line that does the same , and you will see that its industry standard , and dt is comparativly dirt cheap when you look at the buy in compared to all the other games out there for what you get , AND its balanced . i have seen some complain that $100 for a starter was to much compared to other starter forces , but if you look at alot of those other starters , they are so imbalanced , that you HAVE to play the scenarios , OR buy new troops right off the bat to make up the dif. between the 2 forces in the box  . AT-43 was a great example of this .

this isnt me saying it because i just feel like standing on my well worn soap box , its because i have played minis games for 20+ years , and this is how its done . dont believe me ? ask your FLGS .

 

i dont suggest that it wouldnt be cool to have a big box set as you are suggesting , but doing so would greatly hamper the growth of this game since it would mean less money to grow it on , after all they need to run the company as a business , not as gamers just having fun . i would rather pay the comparativly small extra and know that its bringing other cool stuff out than save money and watch the game stumble , and compared to what i would have to spend with every other minis company out there , this game is surprisingly dirt cheap , which is good , cause im surprisingly broke :)  

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Kris I think we are not on the same page. I liked the original product format specifically because it avoided all the things I don’t like about traditional miniatures games. I never felt like I could “own” a game like warmachine in the same way I could “own” a board game.

 

If someone asks me if I have warmachine I could only say “i have a cygnar army, a few bookstokens but only for my favorite caster”

 

If someone asked if I have battle lore I could say “yes”maybe follow with “and a few expansions”.

 

I wanted that kind of ownership with dust tactics, that simple purchase decision that only comes from a true board game format. Board games are a vibrant marketplace that can support a wide verity of titles, with hobby miniature games it can be really hard to get store supportbiuld a player base, it's getting better (vastly better then it was when war machine broke) but it's still a very hard trick to pull off.

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TylerT said:

Kris I think we are not on the same page. I liked the original product format specifically because it avoided all the things I don’t like about traditional miniatures games. I never felt like I could “own” a game like warmachine in the same way I could “own” a board game.

 

If someone asks me if I have warmachine I could only say “i have a cygnar army, a few bookstokens but only for my favorite caster”

 

If someone asked if I have battle lore I could say “yes”maybe follow with “and a few expansions”.

 

I wanted that kind of ownership with dust tactics, that simple purchase decision that only comes from a true board game format. Board games are a vibrant marketplace that can support a wide verity of titles, with hobby miniature games it can be really hard to get store supportbiuld a player base, it's getting better (vastly better then it was when war machine broke) but it's still a very hard trick to pull off.

in that regard , i understand your point of view , but in reality , DESPITE the boardsthe issues a small number of people have with them , you have to look at this gamerealise that its NOT really a board game in any respect EXCEPT the phrase " borad game " in the descripter . in every real reagard , it IS a minis game in the best ways , while avoiding several of the worst .  

if they didnt sell it as such , they would miss out on all the profits that would be made on this by all the people who would break it upsell it in parts on ebay . i would rather that DGFFG make the profits off all the single unit sales than the after marketers , it will go on to help the game go beyond just the 5 expansions announced ,the format of selling the broken up units helps keep the game goingall of us excited as they announce new products every few weeks .

and in some regards , board games do a similar release structure  , only MUCH less often . while YES their expansions often contain what you see as more figures , the point systemsize of the models makes them about the same on value .like your "some expansions" of battle lore , you have the same options to choose whice expansionssingle units you want to play , because one of the aspects that seperates THIS game from other traditional minis games is that you can CHOOSE what you want to buyadd , so you are free to play what you want rather than what they want to force you to buy .  

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